Winter CSM maintenance

[BobL]

I thought they disproved all the old theorys about the stradivarius's perfect sound. From what I know.....The wood was only one key point...(uniform growth rings from equal summer and winter growth). The other main point was the perfection in thickness throughout any of the parts (perfect control of thickness...by hand!!). The end result, I thought, was the perfect craftsmanship trumped any major affect the wood had on it. In other words....they made a perfect instrument...they didn't 'just' have some special wood that no one else could get. Other period instruments were made of very similar woods but without them being combined with the uniform body thickness (therefore not perfect), didn't produce perfection in sound. I remember them using a CT scanner and found the inside of the instruments to be as perfectly made as the outside. From memory, something like 0.005" variation in thickness on all the body panels, curved and bent and all.
I've never been to the Stradivarius museum. You guys do get around.

It wasn't so much the wood thickness that was uniform, it was the air volume of the instruments that was consistent. See here. http://blog.americanhistory.si.edu/...iolins-reveal-master-luthiers-techniques.html

 

[mtngun]

I dont think that would affect anything while the clutch was engaged, no?

Good question. My guess is that the drum will wobble less with the clutch engaged, but it will still wobble more than a new drum. A wobbling drum puts more strain on the chain and on the crank.

If Lakeside were here ........ what do you suppose he would say ? He used to lecture us to grease the clutch bearing every single day while milling.

A replacement drum is supposed to arrive Friday afternoon, just in time for weekend woodcutting.

 

[Brmorgan]

I wouldn't say daily greasing is bad, but I think that's a bit of overkill for most folks. Once the clutch engages, the drum is spinning at the same speed as the crank so the bearing should see next to no wear and tear while cutting, unless it's dried right out and starting to rough up already.

 

[mtngun]

I wouldn't say daily greasing is bad, but I think that's a bit of overkill for most folks. Once the clutch engages, the drum is spinning at the same speed as the crank so the bearing should see next to no wear and tear while cutting, unless it's dried right out and starting to rough up already.

Clutch bearings seem to fling the grease off very quickly. Lakeside said his clutch bearings would be dry after a single day of milling, and that has also been my experience with dino grease. Synthetic grease seems to stay on a little longer.

The clutch bearing doesn't work hard unless the saw bogs, but it is not unusual for a milling saw to bog.

There was a thread a few years back, about a guy milling ironwood with a Stihl 088, and burning up clutch bearings one after another. Lakeside whipped out his "grease daily" lecture.

burning up clutch bearings thread

Clutch bearings are cheap, so I'm not losing sleep over wearing out a clutch bearing, but clutch drums are not so cheap.

Yet another Lakeside clutch lecture.

 

[BobL]

A couple of years back I was asked to comment on a small husky that has snapped a crank at the clutch bearing. There was quite a bit of wear that exactly matched where the bearing rode on the shaft. The bearing was a solid black congealed mass of resin, sawdust, oil and grit and it was well bonded to the clutch housing. Yes he had been using the saw in dirty conditions for months and had never greased the bearing.

Usually the bearing binds the other way (onto the the crankshaft) which is why it can wear the clutch, or binds on both, which is dangerous because the chain does not stop turning at idle. I don't know why his bearing bound on the clutch housing but whatever happened it has been enough to remind me to grease the bearing every 2-3 days of milling on an inboard clutch machine and every 6-8 days on outboard clutch saws.

 

[billstuewe]

I had a bearing go out on my old 084 and it screwed up the plastic housing all around the drum and even messed up the oiler underneath. Cost a bunch to fix!
I grease it very often now with Stihl white lithium grease--comes in an orange tube.

 

[billstuewe]

Thnks mtngun

Like I said in my reply, I think I know what might have happened to the Sendec. The last time I used the 880 with the sendec was in late January.

Then it was too hot in Feb and March to mill or I used the 440. During this time the daytime temps reached over 100F many times and 880 and mill were stored outside covered by a dark grey tarpaulin. I reckon under the tarpaulin it would easily have been 140F+ so the sheer heat probably killed it although interestingly the temp gauge seems to have survived OK. Unfortunately I have nowhere else to put it - my shed also gets very hot in summer ie >120F.

I will make the instrument easily removable so that at least that it does not have to sit outside. This should not be too hard.

BobL, I've got my dashboard together--let's see what you think.

I have mounted the temp gauge to a 1/4" piece of plexiglass sized for the Sendec and the temp gauge. The temp gauge is stuck on with double stick tape and the tacko is attached with velcro and is easily removable. The tacko wire has an aligator clip that I clip next to the spark plug and wrap the wire around the handlebar. I move it between the 660 and 880. I wish the temp gauge was removable also--hurry and perfect that system.

I attached the plexiglass to a metal clip like you screw on the wall to snap a broom handle into. It snaps onto the handle bar and is easy to adjust for ease of viewing and will be switchable between saws when you perfect the lead plugs for the temp gauge. (please hurry)I have no clue how to do it so I am waiting on you. My solution would be to buy a second temp gauge for the 660--which I will probably do since a second probe wire costs about $13 and I paid $16 for the whole thing (plus shipping)

This shows the velcro on the tacko--loops on the plexiglass, hooks on the back of the tacko. I have another set of loops on the 660.

Now for results when milling:
As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F. It cuts a bit faster at the lower RPM. Do you think the lower temp is worth the extra cutting time of maintaing the 8000±RPM? What should I think of as a max milling temp? And yes, this is a stock saw--I am a bit chicken to monkey with it.
Thanks,

 

[mtngun]

As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F. It cuts a bit faster at the lower RPM. Do you think the lower temp is worth the extra cutting time of maintaing the 8000±RPM? What should I think of as a max milling temp?

Thanks for the excellent data, Billstuewe. We dataholics salute you.

Your RPMs don't sound so bad, especially for a stock saw. That's basically the same RPM range as my 066BB, cutting small softwoods with lo-pro. You are running 3/8 x 8, right ?

I have no idea what the ideal temperature should be, especially the way the probe is mounted kinda loosely behind the exhaust port. But -- since BobL uses a similar setup on the same powerhead, you would think that your temps should be similar to his ?

Interesting that temperature rises as RPMs drop.

 

[billstuewe]

I had it up to about 325°F and let off on the push so the RPM went to about 8300 and it cooled to 285° in under 15 seconds. It took about 8' of 30" cutting to get there. Kinda surprised me. Here is what I have been doing. These logs are pecan and have been down for 2 years--tornado damage--and have a fair bit of spalting.

 

[mtngun]

Absolutely beautiful.

Do you make furniture, or just sell the wood to someone else ?

 

[billstuewe]

Both--
--coffee table (live oak)

---TV stand/entertainment center

 

[Andrew96]

Interesting that temperature rises as RPMs drop.

I'd think being fan cooled, that the lower the rpm, the less cooling airflow you will get, the hotter it will run. Since this lower rpm is still well within the power band, there is still significant fuel being burned. Slow it down enough, and your temp will start to go down again..though you couldn't cut at that rpm.

Very nice setup BTW. I like the ability to run at least the tach on two saws and the broom handle mounting clip!

 

[BobL]

Thanks Bill,
In a rush - more comments later
Where is the tip of your sensor located?
Bob

 

[billstuewe]

I put it right where you said to --

 

[BobL]

I put it right where you said to --

OK.

As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F.

Wow! There must be something wrong with either one of our sensors or our saws.

While running my saw my sensor has never gone over 175F! The only time it goes over 200F is if I stop the saw immediately after it has been running and then it rapidly reaches 220F

Normally when I mill the gauge indicates at round the 150 - 160F mark. I thought that all these temperatures were low because of the effect of air cooling - maybe your fin gap is a lot narrower than mine. Don't forget I also have a significant muffler mod on mine but can't imagine that making that much difference.

I haven't calibrated my temp sensor and can't do anything for a couple of months because I am in Calgary. One way to calibrate it to put the sensor tip in a mix of ice and water (let it stabilize for a few (10?) minutes) and it should show 32F and then boiling water (it actually has to be boiling) and it should show 212F. If you are significantly above sea level a correction might be needed.

In terms of your layout I reckon the instruments would be easier to read if they were both rotated anti clock wise by 90º. I like the clip idea but I wonder how it will wear the wrap handle material it the clip is put on and off.

 

[billstuewe]

The center point of the wire loop where the sensor is located is a bit more ridgid and when I tucked it in between the fins above the exhaust port it seemed a snug fit and so that is where I left it. Your temps do sound low--that won't even boil water--would hardly burn you if you touched it?? I am not an engine person but mine seem more in line to me? As you also said earlier--they are relative. I suppose I keep going and if I suddenly see the temp is 350 I know something is wrong. When I shut the engine off quickly--as in running out of gas, the temp does rise up to the 350 range but cools real quick once I crank back up. I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.
The plexiglass is attached to the broom clip by only one screw so it will rotate easily if loosened. I mill with the string pulley and it is positioned perfect for my observation. If you look at my avatar, I have a log loading ramp in front of my Logosol mill and once a log is milled down to the point that I have to bend over to saw, I put the log on there and mill off the end. I will take a pic tomorrow and post.
I do not think it will hurt the rubber on the handle bar for a long time

 

[mtngun]

I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.

How long does this work out to be ?

 

[BobL]

The center point of the wire loop where the sensor is located is a bit more ridgid and when I tucked it in between the fins above the exhaust port it seemed a snug fit and so that is where I left it.

,
The space in between your fins definitely sounds narrower than mine, mine is sort of just hanging there and almost certainly just seeing the cooling air temp rather than a direct temp. I have been meaning to make up a block of ally to force the sensor top hard down onto the exhaust manifold.

Your temps do sound low--that won't even boil water--would hardly burn you if you touched it?? I am not an engine person but mine seem more in line to me?

I agree

As you also said earlier--they are relative. I suppose I keep going and if I suddenly see the temp is 350 I know something is wrong. When I shut the engine off quickly--as in running out of gas, the temp does rise up to the 350 range but cools real quick once I crank back up. I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.

yep - I do the same - it takes about

The plexiglass is attached to the broom clip by only one screw so it will rotate easily if loosened. I mill with the string pulley and it is positioned perfect for my observation. If you look at my avatar, I have a log loading ramp in front of my Logosol mill and once a log is milled down to the point that I have to bend over to saw, I put the log on there and mill off the end. I will take a pic tomorrow and post.
I do not think it will hurt the rubber on the handle bar for a long time

OK I understand now.

 

[billstuewe]

mtngun:
About 30 seconds or so. Most of the time I just set the chain brake and carry the idling saw to the other end of the log and set her down and tend to something else for a bit. When I see the temp declining I shut her off.

Bobl:
The tip of my loop was a bit stiff and when I pinched it to stick it between the fins it just wedged in there nicely. Part of the enlarged sensor made direct contact with the top and bottom of the fins. It is wedged in there like I understood yours was?? I do not know how to draw on my pics like you and mtngun do or I would show you what I mean--sorry.

"yep - I do the same - it takes about " Where you going to give us a figure or were you repeating mtngun's question?

 

[BobL]

mtngun:
About 30 seconds or so. Most of the time I just set the chain brake and carry the idling saw to the other end of the log and set her down and tend to something else for a bit. When I see the temp declining I shut her off.

Bobl:
The tip of my loop was a bit stiff and when I pinched it to stick it between the fins it just wedged in there nicely. Part of the enlarged sensor made direct contact with the top and bottom of the fins. It is wedged in there like I understood yours was?? I do not know how to draw on my pics like you and mtngun do or I would show you what I mean--sorry.

"yep - I do the same - it takes about " Where you going to give us a figure or were you repeating mtngun's question?

Whoops, yeah , what I was going to say is my sensor (which is now obviously measuring cooling air temp) indicates it takes about 30 seconds to get back to just the original milling air temp but I like to get if go lower than this before switching off.

So, if my air temp while sawing is 160F, as soon as I stop cutting and let the saw idle it shoots up to over 200F, then to get back to 160F takes about 30s but I leave it idles for a lot longer. I place the idling saw/mill on a specially designed table to hold a running mill and take the log rails off and tip the slab off the cant and collect up my wedges. This takes 2-3 minutes. By then the air temp is at normal idle which is around 140F - but that depends on the actual real air temp.