Thread: throwing a big pine top 22'

We know the inherit risks, and that is the cost of this vocation.

You know you're right, Del, but you also can agree that the discussion leads to a slippery slope of what ifs where we doubt the truck's application because the drive shaft may fall out, and the truck could flip.

You're right, but I know how fellers start down the slippery slope at this point. And yes, point about ripping up the ol' corrupted root ball is a good one, and can Murph even pull this crap off? Ya.

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Originally Posted by sawinredneck

And to pile on I guess, I worked with a climber last week that was being lazy and hurrying to get through the job. He used the "mini-notch" quite a few times.
I mean no disrespect Daniel, but it really truly isn't a safe practice my friend! It required ten times the normal force to pull a simple leader over, twice the leader went 45 deg. to the notch, I can go on. One lead we pulled with the truck, if I hadn't just floored the truck when I saw it coming it would have landed right on a garage! There was no control involved, it was shear force doing the work that should have been easy pulls.
It seems I'm bagging on you, and we've had this discussion elsewhere in depth, but now that I have used and seen it in use, I can attest it is a dangerous practice first hand!
People pull up your vids on youtube, you present yourself well and come across as an "educator" whether you mean to or not, "Joe homeowner" will watch and think this is the new and better way that all the fancy wazoo arborist types are using and is going to get himself killed!

C'mon Andy.. I understand your point about the homeowners (I give people more credit than that!), AND still that is a miscarachtorization of the situation.. The mini-notch, which is quite useful and effective IN THE RIGHT SITUATION, SHOULD NOT be used when doing precision falling... it has its uses.. often when there is no need to pull at all. I showed it in a video where there was no access to pull the saw around the back of the tree for the backcut!
How much sense do you have, to keep working with someone after seeing that unsafe work practices.. I wouldn't put up with it.. You want to talk about unsafe..... most unsafe in this business is just working with the wrong people..

Make no mistake, that is the LAST time I will EVER work with him again!

Originally Posted by Del_Corbin

The point I'd like to make is that when we use equipment capable of exerting extremely large forces into the tree felling/pulling scenario is that it greatly multiplies and miscalculations in the planned final outcome. Take for instance, if the whole tree had come over with its rootball. If a rope pulling device like the Maasdam........or fiddle blocks........or even a GRCS were used for pulling the slower application of applied force would have given you more time to appraise the situation, communicate to your puller....and finish your back cut felling the tree as planned.

I use vehicles to pull sometimes, too.

Del,
This is a bit of a tricky issue, becasue you can clearly get into a lot of trouble if the pulling force or falling cut are mishandled.. not something that any big company could ever condone.. HOWEVER, if a faller understands exactly how to form the proper hinge for the situation, and there is good communication between the faller and the "puller", the use of equipment in suburban tree falling can be extremely safe and productive.. the only question is "how does one determine when the faller has the knowledge and skill to do so safely".. I would have never not communicated the pre-fall plan to the op on that job if there was any serious risk.. AND it was unbelieveable to me that he did what he did... he's seen the process 100s of times... IMO the risk of breaking the top out was much greater than barber chair on that dead maple.. I know a contract climber that had the entire top of a big mulberry land on him when the company owner pulled too early on the skid steer.. I use every fall on the ground to hone falling skill and develop knowledge so that when it counts in the air, and my life is on the line, I can proceed with confidence..

Originally Posted by sawinredneck

And to pile on I guess, I worked with a climber last week that was being lazy and hurrying to get through the job. He used the "mini-notch" quite a few times.
I mean no disrespect Daniel, but it really truly isn't a safe practice my friend! It required ten times the normal force to pull a simple leader over, twice the leader went 45 deg. to the notch, I can go on. One lead we pulled with the truck, if I hadn't just floored the truck when I saw it coming it would have landed right on a garage! There was no control involved, it was shear force doing the work that should have been easy pulls.
It seems I'm bagging on you, and we've had this discussion elsewhere in depth, but now that I have used and seen it in use, I can attest it is a dangerous practice first hand!
People pull up your vids on youtube, you present yourself well and come across as an "educator" whether you mean to or not, "Joe homeowner" will watch and think this is the new and better way that all the fancy wazoo arborist types are using and is going to get himself killed!

LOL, will they screw it up? Sure as chit, they will. I've been around long enough to know that's inevitable, but that's up to their stupid arses to get done.
You really have to have that engineering eye to see the forces, vectors, velocities etc working together, or you can't understand why all of the components in the pine top toss step notch works for Murph's particular purpose.

My point is that not everyone can see it straight, but some people can, and those should be directing the job not the online peanut gallery.

You know, my pops can't see green. He sees gray instead. It's not a choice. It's his brains aren't doing the work to bring up that brilliant, vibrant color to his concsiousness. You'll know when you can't see green because someone is going to notice you don't make the fickle distinction between the color spectrum. It works like that for an engineer's eye too. Someone will tell you when you don't distinguish the forces that are available to you on a job. And those that see them clearly can cut the job closer than the guys that can't.

That's facts, jacks. Now LXT, sing for me you fuddy bastar. LOL

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Originally Posted by sawinredneck

Make no mistake, that is the LAST time I will EVER work with him again!

BUT still you made the judgment to keep working with him that day.. what did you make more important than safe work practices? Finishing the job??? the $$$? Why didn't you stop the guy and finish it yourself or talk some sense to him and teach him how to make a proper notch and backcut, or stop the job and come back another day with another climber etc... surely there were other options..

I've done a fair amount of falling, I have a pretty good grasp of forces, vectors and otherwise. Most of my falling is in thick woods, get it right or fight a long time to get it down. You learn a lot really fast, the really hard way in that situation!
I've done several close quarters fells for home owners, I can tell them where the tree will land and why, most doubt me until it's on the ground, then go in the house quietly!
I'm certainly not without my mistakes, fortunately no property damage was ever done, I had room when I experimented. Anyone that tells you every fell has gone properly, well, is a liar! We all make mistakes and will continue to do so, that's just life!
No, I can't get out and fell tree's like I used to and want to anymore, and yes, my climbing days are over now. Nothing I can do about either of those situations, I'm screwed for the rest of my life. But that doesn't mean I don't know anything about the physics of it, haven't done it, and can't continue to learn about it/from it!

Originally Posted by murphy4trees

BUT still you made the judgment to keep working with him that day.. what did you make more important than safe work practices? Finishing the job??? the $$$? Why didn't you stop the guy and finish it yourself or talk some sense to him and teach him how to make a proper notch and backcut, or stop the job and come back another day with another climber etc... surely there were other options..

I can't climb anymore, I broke my back a year ago August, those days are over in my world Daniel! I made nothing off the job, it was removing two large Maples on my Mom and Dad's property, I was there supporting them and being groundie for him.
I've worked with him and used him for years, seems he's gotten into drugs, bad, and there wasn't much reasoning, explaining or dealing with him! I explained how I wanted it done and he'd just do what he wanted anyway!
We got it done, nobody got hurt, nothing major got torn up, sent him on his way and will never call him again!

Sorry to hear about the back Andy... that sucks... Some people you just can't talk sense to.

FTA............or is it Elmer Fudd? you worthless ball bag....................SHUT UP!


All this discussion about other than the facts are misleading, maybe that ornamental cherry didnt have damage?? But why do something that blatantly stupid to begin with? why say you read editions (particularly #4) when you havent, & Oooo so many other whys????

If AA would have done something like that we would have busted on him, the fact that certain terminology is used to describe something is what has the veterans of this trade rolling their eyes, Murph I have no doubt you are a good tree man.......But when I read & listen to the arrogants, lies & see the wrong doings while busting the competition, I just view you in a different light Now.

what you do is no better or any more difficult than what the rest of us do day in & day out.........the problem is even when you`re wrong you wanna be right & go to great lengths to prove it........atleast AA admits his short comings...you just try to make excuses for yours!



LXT......................

Originally Posted by murphy4trees

And of course I get to put up with such non-sense...

If I gotta watch the "PINE TREE TRACTOR PULLS" and then have you explain it too me for 15 minutes trying not to HANG myself , than you can watch a 1 minute stump tearing video , and if you say then don't watch , I can't ignore a car crash either ... But in reality its a good thing you made a video explanation because to a neighbor that may look like some cowboy weekend warrior type of #### there , I mean doing the speed limit in someones driveway are you nuts

The video is fine... just don't attribute it to me...

Originally Posted by murphy4trees

The video is fine... just don't attribute it to me...

Interesting .... Kinda makes sense to you now almost like making a broad assumption and statements about quality and knowledge of others .... You have to admit I mean I found a white dodge and all ...Some good police work ehhhh?

ya that was a nice touch..it was even a 4 door...

True story..... last summer I was on vacation and here's what happened:
My neighbor, who does a lot of free work for me, asked if he could borrow a truck to pull a stump out of his front yard.. "No problem, but we'll use the grinder.. " He said.. no just use the truck.. I insisted.. that's what the grinder is for..

SO I come home to find out that this guy hooked a couple chains together to reach the street, hooked onto the front of another pick-up F-250, that was towing the grinder. one of my co-workers was driving.. he hits the gas, chains separate, recoil throw a chains across the hood leaving a 3' row of sizable dents, and breaks the windshield...

Originally Posted by lxt

FTA............or is it Elmer Fudd? you worthless ball bag....................SHUT UP!

LXT......................

NOW YOU WANNA TALK CARTOONS. YER GUNNA GET IT.