Help Pricing/Determining the Value of Trees

[TNTreeHugger]

Try to find an ASCA arborist. ThIs is what they do when a homeowner has been damaged. Don't do the valuation yourself.

I tried that two years ago. Couldn't find one locally that didn't work for the electric company, or some other excuse.
I found a real nice one I think he was near Knoxville, but he works for some other big outfit that charges an arm and a leg... that's who the attorney I called said he uses in court.

If you know of one in middle TN, I'm all ears.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

This is the organization you need to contact: https://www.asca-consultants.org/

They will assist you in finding a local person in their organization that will come out and assess a value to the trees that you have lost or will loose.

They are the best of the best when it comes to arborists, and you will get a real estimate for what you have lost.

You will have to pay for it, but if you get the right person they might feel a bit of pity on your particular situation and not hammer you too much on their assessment.

Their findings will hold up in a court of law.

Two within 100 miles of me.
One of them, Marty Shaw, I called two years ago: $6500 + extras.

 

[ATpro]

will I have to pay income tax on any claim payout?

No cause the damage you claim for your loss on income tax will be the same as any reimbursement that you may receive. You claim the loss and you claim the reimbursement, you had no gain so you pay nothing more in income tax

 

[TNTreeHugger]

No cause the damage you claim for your loss on income tax will be the same as any reimbursement that you may receive. You claim the loss and you claim the reimbursement, you had no gain so you pay nothing more in income tax

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Jed1124]

Two within 100 miles of me.
One of them, Marty Shaw, I called two years ago: $6500 + extras.

That sounds exorbitant.

I'm ISA certified. CT licensed with two supervisory credentials.

If it's any help, fly me down there, buy plenty of beer, and feed me some of that old school southern cooking and we'll call it fair

Don't know how well that will stand up in court though.................

 

[ATpro]

Got it. Thanks.

Yep, that was the good thing about using the farm for income taxes, you could claim every expense or loss you had on the farm. If you had bug damage in your timber you could cruse your timber, note the bug damage trees and their value and take it off on income taxes.

 

[Del_]

This is the organization you need to contact: https://www.asca-consultants.org/

They will assist you in finding a local person in their organization that will come out and assess a value to the trees that you have lost or will loose.

They are the best of the best when it comes to arborists, and you will get a real estimate for what you have lost.

You will have to pay for it, but if you get the right person they might feel a bit of pity on your particular situation and not hammer you too much on their assessment.

Their findings will hold up in a court of law.

Look for a consulting arborist that has experiece as an expert witness in court.

In for the win.

 

[lone wolf]

That sounds exorbitant.

I'm ISA certified. CT licensed with two supervisory credentials.

If it's any help, fly me down there, buy plenty of beer, and feed me some of that old school southern cooking and we'll call it fair

Don't know how well that will stand up in court though.................

That is a generous offer.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Look for a consulting arborist that has experiece as an expert witness in court.

In for the win.

That would be $6500. for Marty and $5500 for the one up north that I also called.
No guarantee I'd get anything in court, both said the ins. co. would also have their experts in court.
it's on the back burner though, if the ins co. rejects my numbers.

But, here's the thing, we're now going on the third spring. Other than the tests done by the D of Ag inspector the past two years, I don't know what kind of new tests an expert would be able to do at this point in time.

Hey! You're only an hour from me. What kind of credentials do you have?

 

[TNTreeHugger]

That sounds exorbitant.

I'm ISA certified. CT licensed with two supervisory credentials.

If it's any help, fly me down there, buy plenty of beer, and feed me some of that old school southern cooking and we'll call it fair

Don't know how well that will stand up in court though.................

Don't know how serious you are, but this is a generous offer.
Professionally speaking, what would you be able to determine two years after initial contamination?
The poplar tree leaves are showing the exact same damage as they have the past two years, cherries, oakleaf hydrangeas, grapevines, and pears also.
What kind of "report" could you give me that would stand up in court?

 

[Jed1124]

Don't know how serious you are, but this is a generous offer.
Professionally speaking, what would you be able to determine two years after initial contamination?
The poplar tree leaves are showing the exact same damage as they have the past two years, cherries, oakleaf hydrangeas, grapevines, and pears also.
What kind of "report" could you give me that would stand up in court?

Court is going to look for a diagnosis of mortality. From a long distance, I don't think mortality is going to be your issue. I don't know if someone from ASCA could give you a definitive report of mortality until after the fact.
I would be happy to help you as much as I can, but most likely this is above my pay grade.
The guy that quoted you $6500 will most likely offer you a report that includes: the going rate for damaged trees at a certain dbh, an estimate of removal of those trees including removing of stump material. and replacement of said trees of the same or close to the same trees that died.
Your $6500 investment can come to hundreds of thousands of dollars of damages, but that will only be if they die.
It's a real chitty situation. You have damage, no doubt, but a tree with distorted or wilted leaves most likely will not be enough. You need dead trees for a court of law to asses damage.
The chemical company or farmers attorney will ask very pointed questions that need to be answered very specifically.
Are the trees going to die?
When will they die?
How many trees have died already?
What is the particular mode of action of the said chemical that caused the damage or the trees to die?
What is the specific value of the trees that have or will die?
What else has been done on your property that may have caused the damage?

Their job (the attorneys) is to show reasonable doubt so their client does not have to pay.

On and on and on.

That's why that $6500 may not seem to be that much in the end from the guy from ASCA. As much as I would enjoy the company, home cooking, and the beer.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Court is going to look for a diagnosis of mortality. From a long distance, I don't think mortality is going to be your issue. I don't know if someone from ASCA could give you a definitive report of mortality until after the fact.

Exactly. And that's a problem since the death of the trees wasn't instantaneous. Except for the plant biologists who said it's a systemic damage and will stay in the tree and slowly kill it, or weaken it enough to allow other disease, or insects to infest and kill it, everyone else has said. "wait and see/they'll likely grow out of it."

I would be happy to help you as much as I can, but most likely this is above my pay grade.

It is very kind of you to offer though.

The guy that quoted you $6500 will most likely offer you a report that includes: the going rate for damaged trees at a certain dbh, an estimate of removal of those trees including removing of stump material. and replacement of said trees of the same or close to the same trees that died.

That and also other things like decline of property value, loss of shade, etc... He explains all that on his web site.

Your $6500 investment can come to hundreds of thousands of dollars of damages, but that will only be if they die.
It's a real chitty situation. You have damage, no doubt, but a tree with distorted or wilted leaves most likely will not be enough. You need dead trees for a court of law to asses damage.

True, but here's the thing; some of the trees are looking normal, some have fewer and smaller leaves (not enough to produce enough energy to sustain the tree), some have moderate limb dieback along with the fewer and smaller leaves (not enough energy production), some have severe limb dieback and several redbuds are completely dead as are the mimosas. The walnut trees vary in the above stages. So, at the present time only a few walnuts, a few redbuds, and two mimosas are completely dead BUT it's obvious which trees will be dead next year and the year after.
There is a three year limit in TN for filing a property damage claim.

The chemical company or farmers attorney will ask very pointed questions that need to be answered very specifically.
Are the trees going to die?
When will they die?
How many trees have died already?
What is the particular mode of action of the said chemical that caused the damage or the trees to die?
What is the specific value of the trees that have or will die?
What else has been done on your property that may have caused the damage?

The Ag agent and the insurance company, have made the claim that we had weather conditions that "could" have caused the damage. The first year, we had a bad dry spell and this past winter we had a week of below freezing temps. However, the D of Ag' inspector reports for the past two years cancel that out with concrete proof the trees are contaminated with 24-D.

Their job (the attorneys) is to show reasonable doubt so their client does not have to pay.

On and on and on.

That's why that $6500 may not seem to be that much in the end from the guy from ASCA. As much as I would enjoy the company, home cooking, and the beer.

And that's a road through hell I have no desire to travel.
I gave them a $ total for 18 trees, out of a total of 135, including the Nandina hedge and the grapevines. I could have really gouged them for all 135 being contaminated and being decimated that first year - and I have hundreds of photos to prove it.
I'll be happy with that amount and I'm hoping they will be also... save us both the trouble of having to go to court.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Oh, and I'm not having the trees removed. I'm leaving them as monuments to the dangers of herbicides. I've already made a 4' x 4' sign and nailed it to the mimosa in the front yard.
And I've already replanted volunteers along the fence row and throughout the yard.

here is Marty's web site
https://www.greenseasonconsulting.com/

 

[Del_]

That would be $6500. for Marty and $5500 for the one up north that I also called.
No guarantee I'd get anything in court, both said the ins. co. would also have their experts in court.
it's on the back burner though, if the ins co. rejects my numbers.

But, here's the thing, we're now going on the third spring. Other than the tests done by the D of Ag inspector the past two years, I don't know what kind of new tests an expert would be able to do at this point in time.

Hey! You're only an hour from me. What kind of credentials do you have?

I.S.A. Certified arborist for 18 years. 1991-2009. CA PD-0183.
Your's is the kind of situation that I've avoided being involved with like the plague.

You need an I.S.A. BCMA with expert witness experience.
I doubt you'll get a check from an insurance company without a BCMA, but there is always a possibility that an insurance company would pay you to go away.

Over the years I've attended lots of various seminars on the subject but have always had zero interest in making it a part of my business. The training though is a big help navigating the arborist/tree owner relationship. In other words, staying out of trouble.

Have you been photo documenting the decline of your trees? (time stamps are nice)

I did tree work for 40 years and never ended up in court even once.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I.S.A. Certified arborist for 18 years. 1991-2009. CA PD-0183.
Your's is the kind of situation that I've avoided being involved with like the plague.

You need an I.S.A. BCMA with expert witness experience.
I doubt you'll get a check from an insurance company without a BCMA, but there is always a possibility that an insurance company would pay you to go away.

Over the years I've attended lots of various seminars on the subject but have always had zero interest in making it a part of my business. The training though is a big help navigating the arborist/tree owner relationship. In other words, staying out of trouble.

Have you been photo documenting the decline of your trees? (time stamps are nice)

I did tree work for 40 years and never ended up in court even once.

Yes, hundreds of photos, with time stamps.
I'm hoping they'll pay me to go away. I have no desire to go to court over it either.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Just came across this article (I've also posted it in full to the Crop Spraying thread)

​

Use Glyphosate With Care Near Trees!​

"Dr. Hannah Mathers, an independent nursery crop/landscape consultant with Mathers Environmental Services, LLC, conducted research on bark splitting of nursery and landscape trees during her time at The Ohio State University."

Dr. Mathers is the other expert I talked to two years ago. She's the one who told me it is a systemic toxin that would winter over in the roots and come back up in the spring for repeat damage.
Both her and Mr. Shaw were helpful and forthcoming with information, but for me, at that time, their fees were more than I could afford.

 

[Jed1124]

Just came across this article (I've also posted it in full to the Crop Spraying thread)

​

Use Glyphosate With Care Near Trees!​

"Dr. Hannah Mathers, an independent nursery crop/landscape consultant with Mathers Environmental Services, LLC, conducted research on bark splitting of nursery and landscape trees during her time at The Ohio State University."

Dr. Mathers is the other expert I talked to two years ago. She's the one who told me it is a systemic toxin that would winter over in the roots and come back up in the spring for repeat damage.
Both her and Mr. Shaw were helpful and forthcoming with information, but for me, at that time, their fees were more than I could afford.

It's unfortunate that in this country and I'm sure of many others you can not get damages in a liability case without a ton of money.
I remember going though a legal battle a number of years ago. If I just had enough money I could prove my case easy peasy. Without it, I was screwed.
The whole system is rigged. The judges are ex attorneys. They want to see the attorneys practicing making money.
If you don't have it, you don't get justice.
I lost my faith in the legal system. It's all about money.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Legal system, not justice system.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

It's unfortunate that in this country and I'm sure of many others you can not get damages in a liability case without a ton of money.
I remember going though a legal battle a number of years ago. If I just had enough money I could prove my case easy peasy. Without it, I was screwed.
The whole system is rigged. The judges are ex attorneys. They want to see the attorneys practicing making money.
If you don't have it, you don't get justice.
I lost my faith in the legal system. It's all about money.

Exactly.
One of the attorneys I talked to two years ago told me he would be happy to look over all my documents and notes, but if I didn't have a gang of neighbors joining me for a class-action suit, I had zero chance of winning against the chemical companies. RFK Jr. did succeed in suing Monsanto/Bayer for, literally, billions but they were class-action suits.
This same lawyer told me a story about a woman he was currently representing and had for several years, but who was about to drop him because she ran out of money to go any further. He said she has already paid over 60K and the case was still unresolved. She owned mountainside property and people were driving through her property on dirt bikes and atv and whatnot. They were claiming right-of-way access and she said they did not have access. She put up a fence, they took it down.
So the poor woman is out 60k, the attorney made 60k and she still has trespassers on her property.
This attorney told me he'd be glad to take my money, but I wouldn't win in court.

If I lived in a multi-million dollar sub-division with impeccable and high-dollar landscaping with specimen trees, sure, I would have hired one of those experts two years ago. But, I don't.
I live in a rural farm community and all but the buckeye trees everyone would call "invasive" or "junk" trees.
But the fact remains, I have been cultivating, nurturing, and caring for all of them for 30 years. I don't have the time to start all over again - I most likely won't be here in 20 years!

 

[Jed1124]

Exactly.
One of the attorneys I talked to two years ago told me he would be happy to look over all my documents and notes, but if I didn't have a gang of neighbors joining me for a class-action suit, I had zero chance of winning against the chemical companies. RFK Jr. did succeed in suing Monsanto/Bayer for, literally, billions but they were class-action suits.
This same lawyer told me a story about a woman he was currently representing and had for several years, but who was about to drop him because she ran out of money to go any further. He said she has already paid over 60K and the case was still unresolved. She owned mountainside property and people were driving through her property on dirt bikes and atv and whatnot. They were claiming right-of-way access and she said they did not. She put up a fence, they took it down.
So the poor woman is out 60k, the attorney made 60k and she still has trespassers on her property.
This attorney told me he'd be glad to take my money, but I wouldn't win in court.

That's exactly my point more that you know.
I think RFK's lawsuit against Bayer with regard to Glyphosate was complete horse ****. There is not a good chemical scientist in the US that would agree with the findings of the jury. I am familiar with the case. Very familiar. It was the finding of a jury and not scientists.
But RFK had enough money and backers that he could go into a court of law and convince a jury of 12 that those people contracted Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma from Glyphosate.

Now all we her are advertisements from blood sucking lawyers about whether or not your non Hodgkin's came from glyphosate and whether or not you due damages...........

I'll still vote for him if he has a knats chance in hell but he was all wrong with this one. But money will be made, so it's ok.

You on the other hand have direct damage to you property, but will not see a penny unless your loaded with money and can pay thousands to the blood sucking cork screwers.

It's a damn shame.