Why Run a .404 Chain?

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Josh A.

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I hear a lot of talk about .404 chains for the big saws. I have a 084 that currently has a 3/8" sprocket and bar on it. What would the advantage of running the bigger chain be? The 3/8" should pull easier, if you look at it from a physics standpoint. It is cheaper, and a heck of a lot easier to find. In milling applications it would take less material away. I am sure there are good reasons to use the .404, but I do not have enough experience with the larger displacement/bar chainsaws to know why.

Thanks in advance.
 
.404 is a tougher condition chain that take more abuse then 3/8's. In big wood it is also a tad faster then 3/8's. In smaller wood its a tad slower then 3'8's. .404 is also a stronger chain. It can handle high HP and torque without stretchin as bad or breaking. Thats why alot of the west coast fallers run them. They still have ALOT of big wood.
 
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Thanks for the insight Pops! Knew there were advantages. Now, on to ponder something else...
 
As far as I know from Stihl you can only buy .404 bars for MS880.
Unless you get a hard nose bar or buy .404 bar and change the
tip sprocket your self to what pitch you want.



TT
 
Not really sure. I'm just stating info that I have gathered around AS over the years.

No offense meant at all, but that is info that you should divulge when answering questions.

You made it sound like it was from experiance which don't appear to be the case.

Your probably pretty much right on though, but you forgot to mention the extra power needed to pull .404.
 
I too have been left wondering after reading many posts on this site stating that .404 cuts quicker on big saws in big wood without any explanation. Assuming these statements to be true, the only theoretical conclusion I can arrive at (other than there is some design dynamic about .404 that is more efficient than .375 such as better chip removal or less overall friction due to fewer links) is the larger saws must have enough power that the chain size doesn't significantly effect the saw's WOT rpms thus with the same toothed sprocket the .404 has a faster chain speed resulting in a quicker cut. A little math shows the .404 should be 7.7 % faster if everything else is equal (.404/.375). True or not, I plan to put .404 on my newly acquired SP125C once I locate a nice long bar for it. Ron
 
We have always run .404 chisel chain on saws over 85cc , the cutters are bigger and outlast 3/8" chain a lot longer, don`t have to sharpen it as often as 3/8" and it does seem to cut faster with big engined saws. I have not timed the cuts but just by the feel of it as the bar drops when a high torque saw is self feeding in big hardwood it would seem the .404 is cutting faster and pulling chips more freely.
Pioneerguy600
 
I run 404 on everything 90cc and up.
I did compare it once with 3/8's on an 066 flatop.
Didn't have a stop watch but according to my mississippi counter it was faster.
Will take more abuse and less teeth to sharpin.:biggrinbounce2:
 
I tried to run some 3/8 chain on a 2100 homelite I have with a rim drive just to see. It seemed a bit slower, but not much. Anyway I had no real cpmplaints till about an hour before quittin time when the chain let go and snapped. The bar was a 36" roller nose. The trees were mostly hardwoods ranging from about 24"-40". I'm not sayin this will always happen with 3/8 on a real big saw, but it has never happened to me with .404. I kinda always had the impression too that on the 6 cube and up saws that .404 seemed a little faster, but I don't have any recorded times, just seat of the pants feel to go on.
 
. . . . A little math shows the .404 should be 7.7 % faster if everything else is equal (.404/.375).

A little math can be a dangerous thing. All you have taken into account is the fewer number of cutters. 404 cutters are also a little wider (7% as it so happens) so these cancel each other out. (see here for a post on real kerf sizes)

I'm not convinced its faster but if it is probably has something to do with better big chip clearance.
 
As far as I know from Stihl you can only buy .404 bars for MS880.
Unless you get a hard nose bar or buy .404 bar and change the
tip sprocket your self to what pitch you want.
TT

Not according to the Chains, Bars and Accessories catalog. There are 4 different bar lengths in Rollomatic ES available with the 3003 mount which suits the 064-MS660 series. 3003 mounts fit smaller saws as well but Stihl don't recommend using it on them.

We used to use 404 on anything that requires a wider cut. On the bigger hardwood trees we used to have to ring bark the tree before falling it if we used 3/8 chain but with 404 we did not need to ring bark the tree. The old 051 would handle the 404 chain with ease but the 056 would struggle.

Regards

Phil
 
There are 4 different bar lengths in Rollomatic ES available with the 3003 mount which suits the 064-MS660 series.
Regards

Phil

Me thinks you boo booed? Sure you didn't mean MS880? MS660 and MS880 have different mounts.
MS660 takes the standard Stihl 12mm slot bar, the MS880 takes the 14mm bar :cheers:

But anyway, .404" in my book and experience has a number of advantages over 3/8". Loggers that fell Stringybark for example favour .404" due to the wider kerf and less bark getting jammed. On long bars .404" clears chips better. The second I converted a 42" Oregon Power Match Plus from .404" to 3/8" it started having all sorts of chip clearance and jamming problems in certain types of wood. This isn't noticed when milling however due to the direction of the grain cut (smaller chips) and this same 42" bar works a treat when milling with 3/8", cross cutting in some wood it's a pig with some nasty kickback tendencies from the 3120 when the chips jam it up in the cut.
Even on shorter bars I believe it has the wood on 3/8", providing your saw has the nuts to pull it swiftly and it has been set up correctly. When you take into account how much longer the chain stays sharp, plus how much longer the cutters can be used before the chain gets thrown away and it becomes far more appealing.
I ran a 20" .404" .063" Tsumura with semi chisel on my modded 7900's for a while and I was a big fan. Unfortunately I had to come to terms with the vast array of chains hanging in my shed and my failing memory as to just which saw and bar they belonged to :) I swapped the tip to 3/8" once that one loop of .404" wore out as I already had a swag of 72DL 3/8" .063" chains there to use. No regrets and the guys flaming anybody that uses .404" should remember that cutting cants and racing is far different to felling or firewood cutting in the field.
 
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No offense meant at all, but that is info that you should divulge when answering questions.

You made it sound like it was from experiance which don't appear to be the case.

Your probably pretty much right on though, but you forgot to mention the extra power needed to pull .404.


Yeah I didn't think about saying I had no hands on experience. I've been thinking about trying some .404. Just havent pulled the trigger. I've done tons of research.
 
Me thinks you boo booed? Sure you didn't mean MS880? MS660 and MS880 have different mounts.
MS660 takes the standard Stihl 12mm slot bar, the MS880 takes the 14mm bar :cheers:

No error on my part. Poster said the only rollomatics available were to suit the MS880 which takes a 3002 mount. I pointed out that there are 3003 mount rollomatic ES 404's available which suits saws up to an MS660.

Regards

Phil
 

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