New guy with double tie in question

[Brent Stomp]

Hello everyone. I've been lurking here for some time now soaking in all the information on this site and I have a question. But first a bit of background info. I am very familiar with ropes and rigging but in a bit of a different section. I am a certified rope rescue technician and have been for the past 15 years. I am very familliar with this sector of the rope industry as well as some experience in the rope acsess industry as well. It has been within the last year or so that I have found the arborist profession extremely interesting. I have some of my own rope gear that I play with in my spare time and have just reciently started purchasing some tree gear. Below is a picture of some of my gear. Not in the picture is a 200' length of 11mm New England KMIII rope, petzl full body navaho harness with croll and a petzl helmet and I have just reciently picked up a used set of Klien climbing spurs with pole gaffs.
Coming from the rescue industry I have become very comfortable with having a back up (belay) line incase things go south with the main line. At work it is a manned belay system and when I am climbing for fun at home I use a petzl ASAP on a second line.
I have a 40' spruce tree in my yard that needs to come down because it has a bit of a lean towards my neihbors garage and I am afraid it will eventually fall. Because of where it is, I can not cut it down from the ground so I will have to climb it and remove it from the top down in small sections. Idealy I would like to get a climbing line to the top as a life line while I climb with my spurs and limb it as I go up, but because the branch network is so thick and bushy, there is no way I will be able to get a throw line through them. I have very little experience with climbing spurs but plan to practice until I am comfortable before tackling this. I would like to have a double tie in if possible but not sure what the best way would be. I have thought about tieing in with a lanyard at each spot I have to stop and preform work but that doesn't help me while I am climbing. Am I being a bit to "safety minded". How would you guys tackle this.

 

[Yarz]

Definitely not too safety minded - having two tie-in points is always recommended when cutting.

While I am definitely no expert, here's how I remain double tied in while limbing on the way up a pine:

The first is the standard lanyard/flipline.
The second is an adjustable friction saver around the trunk, through which I have my climbing line setup in a doubled rope setup with a split tail tied in a Blake's hitch.
Using this setup, I can advance up the tree, moving both tie-ins up as I go, and I still have an emergency path to the ground, should I ever need it. I just have to release the lanyard and rappel on the doubled rope setup.

If that's not clear, let me know and I can work on getting you some pictures.

I have watched videos of people using two lanyards, but I like the extra safety of having the path down if I need.

 

[SierraMtns]

Definitely not too safety minded - having two tie-in points is always recommended when cutting.

While I am definitely no expert, here's how I remain double tied in while limbing on the way up a pine:

The first is the standard lanyard/flipline.
The second is an adjustable friction saver around the trunk, through which I have my climbing line setup in a doubled rope setup with a split tail tied in a Blake's hitch.
Using this setup, I can advance up the tree, moving both tie-ins up as I go, and I still have an emergency path to the ground, should I ever need it. I just have to release the lanyard and rappel on the doubled rope setup.

If that's not clear, let me know and I can work on getting you some pictures.

I have watched videos of people using two lanyards, but I like the extra safety of having the path down if I need.

I would like to see a picture if its not to much trouble. I was taught the old school way with doubled rope and Blakes hitch to get out of the pine. Limbing on the way up I was taught to run to flip lines with the 2nd line loose just incase the 1st line had a failure.

I like the way you talked about rappeling right out the tree at any moment if there is a emergency.

Can you post a couple pictures on how you run the adjustable friction saver.

Thanks Nick

 

[Yarz]

Not a problem, but, it may be a few days before the weather's nice enough for me to get you some pictures. But in the meantime, I found this video of someone doing it similarly:


There are just a few differences.
1. He's using a zigzag instead of a blake's hitch
2. I typically use my lanyard above my adjustable friction saver, because the lanyard is my primary tie in.

 

[Jed1124]

Use your climbing line as a lanyard as a second point of attachment while spiking up a single stem conifer. Advance as you go. No need for a high tie in point unless it's to another tree where the integrity of tree your removing is in question.

 

[Jed1124]

Not a problem, but, it may be a few days before the weather's nice enough for me to get you some pictures. But in the meantime, I found this video of someone doing it similarly:


There are just a few differences.
1. He's using a zigzag instead of a blake's hitch
2. I typically use my lanyard above my adjustable friction saver, because the lanyard is my primary tie in.

Why the friction saver?

 

[Yarz]

Why the friction saver?

Simply so that I still have an emergency path to the ground. If, for whatever reason, I need to get down in a hurry, that allows me to just rappel on a doubled rope system.

I did start out doing exactly what you said, and use the climbing line for a second lanyard. Then I wanted the emergency decent ability, so I changed to choking the climbing line onto the spar and having a rescue 8 locked off. I was never truly comfortable with my ability to control the decent on the rescue 8, especially if one of my arms/hands got hurt somehow. So I switched to the friction saver to keep using a system that I was more familiar with, and therefore felt safer and more comfortable.


NOTE: I am by no means an expert. I've only been climbing a couple times per year for the last 3 or so years when I or friends have trees that need to be removed.

 

[Jed1124]

Simply so that I still have an emergency path to the ground. If, for whatever reason, I need to get down in a hurry, that allows me to just rappel on a doubled rope system.

I did start out doing exactly what you said, and use the climbing line for a second lanyard. Then I wanted the emergency decent ability, so I changed to choking the climbing line onto the spar and having a rescue 8 locked off. I was never truly comfortable with my ability to control the decent on the rescue 8, especially if one of my arms/hands got hurt somehow. So I switched to the friction saver to keep using a system that I was more familiar with, and therefore felt safer and more comfortable.


NOTE: I am by no means an expert. I've only been climbing a couple times per year for the last 3 or so years when I or friends have trees that need to be removed.

If you use your friction hitch as your point of attachment to your saddle with your climbing line your can decend on it. Just got to have a little stub of some kind.

 

[Yarz]

I suppose that would work as well, as long as you do leave that stub.. It never crossed my mind to do it that way, because I usually try to remove as many stubs as possible to help me move my ropes more easily. Thanks for the alternate method!

To help explain to the OP what I did and now do, I got pictures today.
First is how I used to do it - the choked off climbing line, with the rescue 8. Shown with a hard lock (I actually had to look up the hard lock method again - How quickly I forget.. Haha)


Second is what I do now - the adjustable friction saver tie in with a Blake's hitch.

 

[greengreer]

You need something that you can descend on in a moments notice. Figure 8 will work but isnt ideal imo.
For spruces and firs, it's best to just flipline up and cut as you go. Either move your climbline up as a secondary when cutting or use a second lanyard. Coming from the rescue world a grigri or similar would be a better device. If thats not an option I would use a prussik and add an 8 or munter to be able to descend single line.

 

[Arbomeister]

Hello everyone. I've been lurking here for some time now soaking in all the information on this site and I have a question. But first a bit of background info. I am very familiar with ropes and rigging but in a bit of a different section. I am a certified rope rescue technician and have been for the past 15 years. I am very familliar with this sector of the rope industry as well as some experience in the rope acsess industry as well. It has been within the last year or so that I have found the arborist profession extremely interesting. I have some of my own rope gear that I play with in my spare time and have just reciently started purchasing some tree gear. Below is a picture of some of my gear. Not in the picture is a 200' length of 11mm New England KMIII rope, petzl full body navaho harness with croll and a petzl helmet and I have just reciently picked up a used set of Klien climbing spurs with pole gaffs.
Coming from the rescue industry I have become very comfortable with having a back up (belay) line incase things go south with the main line. At work it is a manned belay system and when I am climbing for fun at home I use a petzl ASAP on a second line.
I have a 40' spruce tree in my yard that needs to come down because it has a bit of a lean towards my neihbors garage and I am afraid it will eventually fall. Because of where it is, I can not cut it down from the ground so I will have to climb it and remove it from the top down in small sections. Idealy I would like to get a climbing line to the top as a life line while I climb with my spurs and limb it as I go up, but because the branch network is so thick and bushy, there is no way I will be able to get a throw line through them. I have very little experience with climbing spurs but plan to practice until I am comfortable before tackling this. I would like to have a double tie in if possible but not sure what the best way would be. I have thought about tieing in with a lanyard at each spot I have to stop and preform work but that doesn't help me while I am climbing. Am I being a bit to "safety minded". How would you guys tackle this.

I started life in the tree business
before moving into IRATA (and becoming a level 3). Now I have returned to the tree business and moved to SRT. In short, I understand your desire to mirror IRATA two rope (not double rope...) SRT techniques in the tree.

The long and short, is that you are best to get your resiliency from a flip line / or two. Having a second line (9mm in rope access with a shunt) will probably get in your way and cause you to be inefficient / tangle in falling branches. If you would like a chat over the phone private IM me!




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[tmclarke11]

Is it possible to use the friction saver and lanyard combo described above without spurs?


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[DSW]

No, that wouldn't work.

 

[Rusty01]

No, that wouldn't work.

But it would sure be interesting to watch...‍