Underbidding

[Brush Hog]

This fits in right here

Two 30 ft blue spruce taken down, chipped, trunk hauled away and stumps ground for $500. WTF!!!!!!!!. Would have been nice if the guy called me back to let me know that my over the phone guesstimate was beat by $700 and saved me an hour round trip. Especially since diesel is $4.19 a gallon. Did the old fart really think I was going to beat that price.

 

[hornett224]

my buddy has a new tactic.

he tells them he isn't giving them an amount.he asks what they want to pay.then tells them whether or not he can do it for that price.he says even if he doesn't get the job it's worth it to see the look on their face.

i am not getting any work.i have over 30 bids out and nothing.prices are more than fair but not what i'd call lowballing.we do the best work in the area and our cleanups are impeccable.ever one praises us for the cleanup.never had an accident,go above and beyond.i usually blow the saw dust off the roof and blow out the leaves in the gutters as well.fix any divits in the lawn.most guys here are cut,collect,and run.no cleanup and looks like a hurricane went through.

since i have nothing to lose at this point i'm going to just go to the insane with my prices.hell,i might even get lucky and get one,LOL.

 

[hornett224]

i never give figures over the phone.

Two 30 ft blue spruce taken down, chipped, trunk hauled away and stumps ground for $500. WTF!!!!!!!!. Would have been nice if the guy called me back to let me know that my over the phone guesstimate was beat by $700 and saved me an hour round trip. Especially since diesel is $4.19 a gallon. Did the old fart really think I was going to beat that price.

i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.

 

[Slvrmple72]

200 - 275 .... an hour
We do dangerous work requiring well-maintained equipment, fuel, healthy bodies, workers comp, insurance, life insurance, medical, dental, vision, equipment maintenance/replacement, and dont forget the taxes. On top of all this you want to save for retirement (think: Roth IRA ) and take vacations, buy a beer now and then, take the Mrs. out on the town, and enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, not extravagant, but comfortable. You find that young buck busting his a$$ for chump change doing a tree for cheap take the time to set him straight, hire him even, and train him about everything you know. Too many people undervalue the quality of their work. Too many customers try to undervalue the work they want you to do for them but expect nothing less than perfection. When it comes right down to it you need to decide if you want to continue in the market warts and all or if it is time to move on.

 

[hornett224]

i have had a few tell me they want to pay so much an hour

i tell them no way.you are not going to single handidly restructure the tree industry because your a cheap ass.

i explain it o some of my buddies in the business like this:

people don't like paying for tree work because when you are done and gone the didn't get anything tangible.they paid a lot of money and have no i-phone,flat screen tv,swimming pool,new deck,or roof.they just have an empty space in their yard that they paid a lot of money for.not something with a complicated remote and a bunch of flashing lights.

 

[Nailsbeats]

i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.

I find that most customers call saying they have this huge tree, we get there and it's 16" flopper. 5' on the stump, now that biatch is big.

The other misconsception many customers have is how much of a mess they will have in their yard if we don't clean it up. Customer: Oh yeah I'll have my boys clean that up over Christmas vacation. Tree comes down.........Customer: could you cut that up, maybe move that, pull that brush over here. Tree man thinking: what happen to no clean up? That's fine though the meter is running.

 

[hornett224]

i had a guy like that last night.

I find that most customers call saying they have this huge tree, we get there and it's 16" flopper. 5' on the stump, now that biatch is big.

The other misconsception many customers have is how much of a mess they will have in their yard if we don't clean it up. Customer: Oh yeah I'll have my boys clean that up over Christmas vacation. Tree comes down.........Customer: could you cut that up, maybe move that, pull that brush over here. Tree man thinking: what happen to no clean up? That's fine though the meter is running.

two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.

 

[Nailsbeats]

two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.

That is classic Hornett, just classic. In those situations I like to leave all the crap in a pile at the base of the tree, Drop all the big wood on top the brush and then crawl out of the pile like rambo and say, "see ya later".

 

[HolmenTree]

two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.

Hear hear [right on!]

 

[chucknduck]

I does depend on what you do for the 400 and also you have to look at what it cost you to make it. Labor is labor, for that money expect to hammer out a full day with a crane or other hairy job, probably with a crew of half legall immigrants or a crew of miscrents. So you just have a truck and your climbing gear. And that 400 is gross while working on the 1099.
Net 400 doing a small easy job that equals 950 which might be 6 hours and cost you your labor plus 550 ( that's everything!). I don't see the problem.
I just bid 4300 for 3 guys and a climber, 2 trucks, chipper, loader. I figure we do it right and unstressed for 2 days, if it goes right. I doubt that I will get that job because I am sure another company can go lower. And they will.
I get smacked out by a company who has been around for years and they have to compete. Where is the profit if they are cheaper? Labor. How do you cheapen the labor? In three words- ITS NOT GOOD.
I think companies that are making awesome money have a very elite clientel and , of course are bad at business. I use the word bad as would Dennis Rodman. Elite clients or not you better be bad.
Out here, where people don't think about trees, they don't care about reputation either. In fact the worse you are known to be the more work you get because that means cheap! Go ahead, go up to them and tell them how much of a tree guy you are and how much you have studied and how much you think you are worth. The next thing they do is call another guy, if you can beat his price for the same job you're out.
Of course I refer to new clients but even old ones who call you back expect it for free. Hell, they payed you last time.
Today I messed around with some business crapola until 2pm when I did a job for 300.00, by myself, and got back to make dinner at 5:30. Tomorrow I will attempt 300 for a full day( sub- climbing) showing them how to finish removing this oak and why they should have called me first, but they allready know why. It will be an easy day and my cost is labor and a few bucks for gas. If I am not out in 8 its 40 bucks and hour to a guy who works WITH me.

Hey Sorry, I posted my "advice" before reading all of your posts. I thought you were a newbie like my self, I can see you have some experience! It is true what you say about businesses making good money because they are bad to the bone and have rich clients. It is also true that I am the owner of the company, not somebody who subs for jobs, or works for anybody except the customer. I live in small town, where there is lots of oil money, so some people have money. I do have all the equipment though. With two big trucks running all day, $950 just won't pay the bills, we'll do that in 3 hours or less most of the time. Heck I filled up the grapple truck yesterday and it took $700 worth of diesel!

 

[lxt]

Heck I filled up the grapple truck yesterday and it took $700 worth of diesel!

This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?

In my area its not grow your biz, its keep it small(pickup truck) & undercut everyone, its hard to hang in there & wait for the busy season so you can get a peice of the NORMAL pie.

I had some season start up maintenance to do yesterday & while getting parts I run into a guy with a rusted out 70`s era ford with side boards made from pallets, truck was primer here, red there, another color here....with make shift signs claiming he was a Tree, firewood & lawn service, I see alot of these types now!!

Sad truth is people feel sorry for em, look at that poor soul....he needs the money!! I pull in with nice equipment & a well maintained older truck!! & the consensus is.....I must be doing ok, look at how nice your stuff is!!!!

I try to stay professional & engage in proper practices, I enlighten the HO`s to the do`s & donts, I try to get them to understand the way a biz legitamately works!! In the end..........$$$$$$$ matters & the lowest bid prevails, Ive returned to many of these people as they wait for a "I told ya so" but I never do!!

whats even worse is most of these lowbidding hacks are savy talkers!! they dont have but enough experience to get in trouble, they talk the HO right in to doing something wrong (topping & leave mess) & then suggest to call for cleanup from someone like me !!! LOL.

Bottom line as I see it.........hack or be hacked, bid low or be underbid, professional = money, Old ugly equip = pity & you get the job..........Its hard to grow & get the right tools & having once been there find myself now having to go backwards to become competitive!!!!


LXT....................

 

[Brush Hog]

i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.

I don't and told this guy I need to see them in person. He was looking for a ballpark price. I was last guy to come look at them so he had plenty of time to call and say I'm all set.

This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?

This is the exact reason I will start working for someone on Monday. I'll still have time to do my own thing but I'll have a weekly pay check to boot.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I'm wondering if downsizing is really the best option. There are several tree services in this area ( my boss's included ) that have all the fancy equipment, grapple trucks, tow behind grinders, 18 inch chippers, bucket trucks, tracksteers, all shiny, all belled and whistled out. They aren't starving. Big new houses and trucks, everything. I think the reason they've prospered is because they keep investing in the business so they can do things faster. The amount of work we did today would have taken my operation at least 3 days to do. I like to make $1k a day, my boss likes to make 3. I think we're bidding everything about the same, they can just make more because they've been upsizing for the past 25 years and they get a lot more jobs than I do.

 

[chucknduck]

This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?

In my area its not grow your biz, its keep it small(pickup truck) & undercut everyone, its hard to hang in there & wait for the busy season so you can get a peice of the NORMAL pie.

I had some season start up maintenance to do yesterday & while getting parts I run into a guy with a rusted out 70`s era ford with side boards made from pallets, truck was primer here, red there, another color here....with make shift signs claiming he was a Tree, firewood & lawn service, I see alot of these types now!!

Sad truth is people feel sorry for em, look at that poor soul....he needs the money!! I pull in with nice equipment & a well maintained older truck!! & the consensus is.....I must be doing ok, look at how nice your stuff is!!!!

I try to stay professional & engage in proper practices, I enlighten the HO`s to the do`s & donts, I try to get them to understand the way a biz legitamately works!! In the end..........$$$$$$$ matters & the lowest bid prevails, Ive returned to many of these people as they wait for a "I told ya so" but I never do!!

whats even worse is most of these lowbidding hacks are savy talkers!! they dont have but enough experience to get in trouble, they talk the HO right in to doing something wrong (topping & leave mess) & then suggest to call for cleanup from someone like me !!! LOL.

Bottom line as I see it.........hack or be hacked, bid low or be underbid, professional = money, Old ugly equip = pity & you get the job..........Its hard to grow & get the right tools & having once been there find myself now having to go backwards to become competitive!!!!


LXT....................

That's why I give bids in a 98 f-150 that is a little dinged up. Then, I show up with a grapple truck and a bucket truck and do the job in a snap! Actually, I think people want to be sure you can do the job with what you've got. So, I think the equipment will get you all the big or tough jobs, which pay better. But, people who need easy stuff done, like a job that you can do with a pole saw, look at you're equipment and think that you're too expensive, and they might be right!

 

[lxt]

I agree faster might be better & make you more $$$, However when I had the 5 ton with grapple, the track skid steer, the track stumper....these Items would sit more than work!

Most folks are keeping the wood in my area to offset heating costs, most dont care about the stump aspects of the tree & if they do...there is a guy that will do any size stump so cheap I cant/wouldnt even think about it.

bottom line is most just want the tree down cause the height & danger are something they dont want to even mess with, so there I am with 100k of equipment with $1000 worth of fuel sitting back at the yard doing nothing, It wasnt always like this though, seems the past 2yrs it has just steadily kept going down hill.

The guys in my area with all the nice shiny equip. are the cheapest, they`re scared to death of loosing there Azz, they have to work to make the payments..........so all the hacks underbid them & now the price is so far south I dont see how any one of them can make it.

Whats funny is right now I am booked through to may, while still thinking about taking a utility job?????? I down sized to save my work force!! It seems to be working for me just sucks having to do more things manually again!!

This might be cruel but Im hoping the hacks take out the larger players, The workmanship of these low bidders is a key selling point for me.....they have to skimp somewhere & its in the cleanup!! Im thinking sooner or later both sides are gonna raise prices to standard or throw in the towel!! I just got to weather the storm!!!!



LXT................

 

[HolmenTree]

The country is falling into a recession ,even here in Canada. Everyone is watching their money a little closer now. The customers with money are investing it because during a recession it is the time to invest when interest rates are way up.Which means less money going around for you and me.We just gotta tighten our belts for now things will get better.

Speaking of tough customers [don't mean to get anybody mad here] . I find school teachers and cops . [in order] are the biggest penny pinchers. My best customers are doctors and their spouses. Price is not an object to them. They just want it done right and they don't want someone unprofessional in their yard [what would their neighbors think if they did]. I did do some light tree removal [not aerial] for an old retired doctor once. In shock he said " $150 an hour . When I practiced I never charged that much!" I just replied "Yeah I charged less too when I used to practice". I still got the job.

 

[2FatGuys]

In shock he said " $150 an hour . When I practiced I never charged that much!" I just replied "Yeah I charged less too when I used to practice". I still got the job.

THAT's funny... I don't care who you are!

 

[Grace Tree]

Teachers=Cheap. I couldn't agree more. The cheapest most demanding group of people I've ever met. I can't understand why. Around here they make decent $$ but certainly don't want to spend it.
Phil

 

[Blakesmaster]

how do I even begin?

I agree faster might be better & make you more $$$, However when I had the 5 ton with grapple, the track skid steer, the track stumper....these Items would sit more than work!

So you no longer have a grapple, track steer or grinder? Is this why it takes you an entire day to do payroll? Seems to me payments on this equipment would be cheaper than hordes of full time laborers.

Most folks are keeping the wood in my area to offset heating costs, most dont care about the stump aspects of the tree & if they do...there is a guy that will do any size stump so cheap I cant/wouldnt even think about it.

I wish I had more of these customers.

bottom line is most just want the tree down cause the height & danger are something they dont want to even mess with, so there I am with 100k of equipment with $1000 worth of fuel sitting back at the yard doing nothing, It wasnt always like this though, seems the past 2yrs it has just steadily kept going down hill.

Only 100k in those pieces of equipment? C'mon, either they were absolute POS's or your full of it. I wasn't born yesterday.

The guys in my area with all the nice shiny equip. are the cheapest, they`re scared to death of loosing there Azz, they have to work to make the payments..........so all the hacks underbid them & now the price is so far south I dont see how any one of them can make it.

Why are they the cheapest? Because they're FAST!

Whats funny is right now I am booked through to may, while still thinking about taking a utility job?????? I down sized to save my work force!! It seems to be working for me just sucks having to do more things manually again!!

This one just doesn't make any sense to me. You mean you're thinking of taking a full time job? What about all your guys? Or are you thinking about doing a line clearing/utility job with your crew? What does this have to do with saving your workforce? Honestly, I'm just confused.

 

[lxt]

The ones I like are the General Contractors building Spec. homes, their $5 an hr imported equipment operator bangs, nicks, breaks up the tree`s that are suppose to stay along with compacting the soil!!! so when the potential owners come to look & want the trees removed they(G.C) try to tell me what their gonna pay

Gotta love it; I gots a 5 a trees 50-60ft tall & you a do em for $500.00 yeah?

Reply......LOL, Ahh No!! you needsa to break a free with more greenbacks, yeah? Boy they hate that, but they`ll get it done for cheap every time.

some of the wealthiest developers & their the cheapest you ever seen.


LXT..............