british columbia faller training advice and discussion

[northwest coast]

i recently looked into becoming a faller and found out that new faller training in b.c. is a ten thousand dollar course, plus hst plus gear and accommodations its closer to twenty thousand dollars for a one month course !! this seems like a big cash grab for the insurance companies or whoever is secretly in charge.

i realize falling is dangerous but it seems like a hidden agenda to me, like trying to keep people out of the industry ??

what are your thoughts and opinions ?? is there any other way for me to get into forestry ?

compare it to fishing, as dangerous if not more so and very few safety regulations, anyone can go out on a dragger or salmon seiner.

i would appreciate any feedback and with luck it will be a prolific discussion, thanks.

 

[coastalfaller]

i recently looked into becoming a faller and found out that new faller training in b.c. is a ten thousand dollar course, plus hst plus gear and accommodations its closer to twenty thousand dollars for a one month course !! this seems like a big cash grab for the insurance companies or whoever is secretly in charge.

i realize falling is dangerous but it seems like a hidden agenda to me, like trying to keep people out of the industry ??

what are your thoughts and opinions ?? is there any other way for me to get into forestry ?

compare it to fishing, as dangerous if not more so and very few safety regulations, anyone can go out on a dragger or salmon seiner.

i would appreciate any feedback and with luck it will be a prolific discussion, thanks.

I know they're not trying to keep people out of the industry, we are going to be desperately short of fallers in the near future. It does make it extremely tough though for people who are interested in getting in to it. We used to be able to break guys in ourselves, but a few bad apples ruined that for us all.

If you already have experience falling, you can challenge the course to get your certificiation. I also believe there is funding available through EI.

Don't give up yet!

 

[Burvol]

I know they're not trying to keep people out of the industry, we are going to be desperately short of fallers in the near future. It does make it extremely tough though for people who are interested in getting in to it. We used to be able to break guys in ourselves, but a few bad apples ruined that for us all.

If you already have experience falling, you can challenge the course to get your certificiation. I also believe there is funding available through EI.

Don't give up yet!

Brother Jordon, long time me no here. I am wanting to challange that course and come up within 5 years, just because my heart has always wanted to and I love BC. Things are ok here, just finished my second unit of the season, I am finally able to not feel greedy or leaving people behind and look out for myself this time, just like when you are in a strip. No one is gonna protect you but yourself. All Nice wood, some hammers in the bottom, 36" 40's at the first buck, 40-42 on stump with bar with and less the majority. You can break me in on the big big big wood

 

[ChrisF]

Not to hijack, but hey Burvol! Haven't seen you post here in a while, good to see you back!

 

[nw axe man]

I can see where you're coming from, however, you have to understand that this business is based on production. To take a man and take the time necessary to break him in costs a ton of money. For you to provide your own tools is nothing new. Everyone has to provide for himself. It's better that way as you learn to take care of your tools as the maintenance comes from your own pocket. It takes a long time to take this type of timber and to fall it right with the highest objective of saving it to next years growth. Understand that all of the "good" ground has been logged off and the new crop coming up is all mechanically felled and processed. That means that the rough ground makes it all the more costly to break a man in as the production typically goes down.
I would just imagine that another of the reasons for the cost in BC to break a man in is to make sure that there is a commitment of following through with the training. To invest even a months time and have him leave if he figures out he doesn't want to continue with timber falling is a lot of money. If someone takes a man on to break him in properly, it takes a lot of stopping and explaining of both the falling and bucking basics and the hazard anaylis and safety considerations.
I really don't think that the BC people are trying to keep people out of the industry. I completely agree with Coast Faller that we're in for a real shortage of men that can handle nice timber in the future. We're just not cutting the nicer timber that takes artwork and finesse and promotes pride in ones work anymore.
I also agree with him about a few bad fallers not taking the time to work with inexperience men to make sure that they're broken in right. I hate to rat on myself, but I did that many years ago thinking that I was a great teacher. Cost me a few relationships that I wish I hadn't lost. My fault but I sure learned that I didn't know all there was to know about breaking someone in. I think maturity in years has helped in that regard.
Anyway, Chris, is you really want to break in, no matter with who you choose, it will cost you more in todays market. I can tell you that if you decide to choose this as a career, be careful, it nevers leaves you if you decide to get out. You can take the man out of the woods, but you can never take the woods out of the man.
All the best to you in your endeavors.

 

[joesawer]

Lol The ten grand is what they hafta pay the government for certification then they have to go some where to break in. Its kinda like CDL license and tuck driving in the states.

 

[nw axe man]

If the 10Gs is just for the certification then I'd say I'd have a bit of a problem. I do know that BC is very concerned about the safety and well being of their cutters. They've put out a pretty good series of falling/bucking techniques and safety videos. Quite expensive to buy them.

 

[coastalfaller]

Brother Jordon, long time me no here. I am wanting to challange that course and come up within 5 years, just because my heart has always wanted to and I love BC. Things are ok here, just finished my second unit of the season, I am finally able to not feel greedy or leaving people behind and look out for myself this time, just like when you are in a strip. No one is gonna protect you but yourself. All Nice wood, some hammers in the bottom, 36" 40's at the first buck, 40-42 on stump with bar with and less the majority. You can break me in on the big big big wood

Anytime, buddy! Come on up! We're going to be needing your services!

Nice timber! Perfect production size wood.

 

[coastalfaller]

I can see where you're coming from, however, you have to understand that this business is based on production. To take a man and take the time necessary to break him in costs a ton of money. For you to provide your own tools is nothing new. Everyone has to provide for himself. It's better that way as you learn to take care of your tools as the maintenance comes from your own pocket. It takes a long time to take this type of timber and to fall it right with the highest objective of saving it to next years growth. Understand that all of the "good" ground has been logged off and the new crop coming up is all mechanically felled and processed. That means that the rough ground makes it all the more costly to break a man in as the production typically goes down.
I would just imagine that another of the reasons for the cost in BC to break a man in is to make sure that there is a commitment of following through with the training. To invest even a months time and have him leave if he figures out he doesn't want to continue with timber falling is a lot of money. If someone takes a man on to break him in properly, it takes a lot of stopping and explaining of both the falling and bucking basics and the hazard anaylis and safety considerations.
I really don't think that the BC people are trying to keep people out of the industry. I completely agree with Coast Faller that we're in for a real shortage of men that can handle nice timber in the future. We're just not cutting the nicer timber that takes artwork and finesse and promotes pride in ones work anymore.
I also agree with him about a few bad fallers not taking the time to work with inexperience men to make sure that they're broken in right. I hate to rat on myself, but I did that many years ago thinking that I was a great teacher. Cost me a few relationships that I wish I hadn't lost. My fault but I sure learned that I didn't know all there was to know about breaking someone in. I think maturity in years has helped in that regard.
Anyway, Chris, is you really want to break in, no matter with who you choose, it will cost you more in todays market. I can tell you that if you decide to choose this as a career, be careful, it nevers leaves you if you decide to get out. You can take the man out of the woods, but you can never take the woods out of the man.
All the best to you in your endeavors.

I agree NW, good post. Joe is right, the $10 000 is just for the course. Problem with it is you don't get to pick the guy you want to break in anymore, you get to pick out of a pool that comes out of the course. And ANYONE can take the course if they have the money. And being as we're loggers, very few of the guys who actually have the savvy and general knowledge to become safe productive fallers actually have the money to take the course. I have one faller that has come out of the course and he is a good man, but unfortunately, he is the exception not the rule from what I've seen so far. It is a very costly endeavor to break in new guys, but it helps when you are able to pick the right candidate.

 

[joesawer]

The same thing happened to truck driving here when the federal government decided to make it safer.
There are exceptions to the rule but by a huge margin the quality of drivers has gone way down.

 

[nw axe man]

Yeah, having the right guy to break in is critical. I've found that attitude is an essential element that can't be overlooked. I had a good friend of mine from Libby, MT call me in '88 for a job. I told him that I was in some real nice timber and needed an experience hand. He said he could handle it. I said to come on over and that I would give him 3 days to show himself. He fell one tree and busted it all up. He looked at me rather sheepishly and said that it was an anamoly. OK, I said. He fell another one and did the same thing. After that he did it one more time and I had to stop him. He knew what was coming so he beat me to the punch. He was honest and said that he had never been in that tall or large of timber before. But, he said, if you'll give me a chance I'll listen to you, do everything you say and be that cutter you want me to be.
How was I supposed to respond? Alright. I did give him a chance based on what savvy I saw and his great attitude. He turned out to be a terrific faller very quickly by just humbling himself and swallowing his pride. That seems to be something that all of us fallers have in spades.

 

[paccity]

Yeah, having the right guy to break in is critical. I've found that attitude is an essential element that can't be overlooked. I had a good friend of mine from Libby, MT call me in '88 for a job. I told him that I was in some real nice timber and needed an experience hand. He said he could handle it. I said to come on over and that I would give him 3 days to show himself. He fell one tree and busted it all up. He looked at me rather sheepishly and said that it was an anamoly. OK, I said. He fell another one and did the same thing. After that he did it one more time and I had to stop him. He knew what was coming so he beat me to the punch. He was honest and said that he had never been in that tall or large of timber before. But, he said, if you'll give me a chance I'll listen to you, do everything you say and be that cutter you want me to be.
How was I supposed to respond? Alright. I did give him a chance based on what savvy I saw and his great attitude. He turned out to be a terrific faller very quickly by just humbling himself and swallowing his pride. That seems to be something that all of us fallers have in spades.

being confident in your work is a must. that said, someone who thinks they know it all, knows nothing.

 

[nw axe man]

Yeah, those are the guys that are always bragging about how they've gotten hurt here and there and cut more timber than everyone combined. I had a guy once tell me that he wore out twenty-three 076s in one season. He's the same guy when I went in to finish up a sale that his brother let go back I found 39, count 'em, 39 trees undercut facing the same direction. I was so dumbfounded I called my father over so he could be a witness that I wasn't seeing things. Never seen anything like it before or since. He was certainly a professional braggart of the basest sort. We have enough problems in this industry without those kind of people running around. They're usually the ones that wind up cutting most of their trees at the restaurant table.

 

[northwest coast]

yeah thats what gets me is that the money for the course goes to the government and the companies cant train who they want, they have to pick out of the people who forked out the cash.

plus 1200 dollars in taxes for a training course seems outrageous, thanks gordon for the hst.

i guess that course is held only a couple times a year, theres one in june but i'm pretty committed to a summer contract for fisheries. i guess i'll have to wait til next feb.

i didnt realize one could challenge it though, ill ask my faller friend about that and maybe he can spend a few days with me.

what are your thoughts on the necessity of a course like that ? is it something that makes sense or just cents ?

 

[coastalfaller]

yeah thats what gets me is that the money for the course goes to the government and the companies cant train who they want, they have to pick out of the people who forked out the cash.

plus 1200 dollars in taxes for a training course seems outrageous, thanks gordon for the hst.

i guess that course is held only a couple times a year, theres one in june but i'm pretty committed to a summer contract for fisheries. i guess i'll have to wait til next feb.

i didnt realize one could challenge it though, ill ask my faller friend about that and maybe he can spend a few days with me.

what are your thoughts on the necessity of a course like that ? is it something that makes sense or just cents ?

Speaking to the necessity, you need your certification to even think about getting hired, that or the course. As for the course itself, you do learn the basics, but you also learn in second growth and usually flat ground, not at all like what you will encounter in the real world. You will come out of it with some great habits and a handle on the theory and technique, but you have to have the attitude that now you're ready to break in as a faller.

Attitude is key, and what NW Axe Man alluded to, you need to be humble, don't be afraid to ask questions, and don't b******t to get hired, be honest about where you're at in your development. Not doing so will only get you in trouble fast. Likely get you fired and if you're lucky, that will be the worst thing that will happen.

 

[coastalfaller]

Yeah, those are the guys that are always bragging about how they've gotten hurt here and there and cut more timber than everyone combined. I had a guy once tell me that he wore out twenty-three 076s in one season. He's the same guy when I went in to finish up a sale that his brother let go back I found 39, count 'em, 39 trees undercut facing the same direction. I was so dumbfounded I called my father over so he could be a witness that I wasn't seeing things. Never seen anything like it before or since. He was certainly a professional braggart of the basest sort. We have enough problems in this industry without those kind of people running around. They're usually the ones that wind up cutting most of their trees at the restaurant table.

If I only had a dollar for every time on the phone I heard "you'll never see anyone fall more timber than me! I'll make you so much money!" lol

 

[northwest coast]

yeah coastalfaller, i just mean the necessity of a course like that within the industry. i guess i'm just kinda choked that it's ten grand for a month of training, my biology degree wont cost that much over 4 full time years.

i can see why a company doesnt want to spend the money training someone who will not turn out to be a loyal employee but its like that in every profession.

i dont understand where the money is going thoug, i mean say you get 10 people in the course, thats 100 grand, maybe i should strive to be an instructor ! haha

i dont have an attitude, i just want some opinions from some people in the know, ya know ?

 

[nw axe man]

yeah thats what gets me is that the money for the course goes to the government and the companies cant train who they want, they have to pick out of the people who forked out the cash.

plus 1200 dollars in taxes for a training course seems outrageous, thanks gordon for the hst.

i guess that course is held only a couple times a year, theres one in june but i'm pretty committed to a summer contract for fisheries. i guess i'll have to wait til next feb.
i didnt realize one could challenge it though, ill ask my faller friend about that and maybe he can spend a few days with me.

what are your thoughts on the necessity of a course like that ? is it something that makes sense or just cents ?

As far as the necessity of the course, I'd have to evaluate it myself to be able to critique it. It sounds like a good course. Like Coastalfaller says, though, you need to have it just to be certified. I guess if they can teach you the basics so you at least have some knowledge and theory of it in practice that's a good thing. My question is, is it enough?
I just spent a week working with the California Disaster Relief chainsaw team. I worked specifically with 2 guys that have some experience. They've been cutting for years. After we were done the team leader asked me if I though they were able to teach others to fall trees in the 24" category. I flat out told him that no, they don't even have the basics down yet. It's a huge responsibility to turn someone loose in the woods with just enough information and training to get him hurt or killed. Take the guy in Virginia in one of the other posts that just got killed last week. I don't want to be that guy that sends someone out with too little information and training. This is a business that is OJT but at the same time you have to have someone who is knowledgable to help you survive.

 

[coastalfaller]

yeah coastalfaller, i just mean the necessity of a course like that within the industry. i guess i'm just kinda choked that it's ten grand for a month of training, my biology degree wont cost that much over 4 full time years.

i can see why a company doesnt want to spend the money training someone who will not turn out to be a loyal employee but its like that in every profession.

i dont understand where the money is going thoug, i mean say you get 10 people in the course, thats 100 grand, maybe i should strive to be an instructor ! haha

i dont have an attitude, i just want some opinions from some people in the know, ya know ?

I hear ya. Check out bcforestsafe.org to see where the money goes.

On average, to do it right, it costs minimum $40 000 (and that's being conservative) for a company breaking in a faller between the costs for wages for trainee and faller, lost production, safety, time off the stump, etc, etc..

No worries, doesn't hurt to ask questions!

 

[coastalfaller]

I guess if they can teach you the basics so you at least have some knowledge and theory of it in practice that's a good thing. My question is, is it enough?


Absolutely not! In my opinion, when the guys get through the course then they are ready to start breaking in. And that's where the right attitude comes in. If you come out of there with the impression that now you're a "faller", you'll be sadly mistaken. The guys that succeed know their place. I don't mean that to sound arrogant, but the newbies have to have the respect both for the job and the men already doing it successfully. You don't have to be a wallflower, but eyes and ears wide open is a good start!