EPA targets families that generate heat off the grid using traditional wood-burning s

[Constrictor]

Third, it doesn’t matter what you believe about the EPA. You can argue all you want about the “good” or the “bad” they do… it still doesn’t matter. The Federal Government does not have the Constitutional authority to “regulate” wood-burning appliance standards (plus a ton more crap) beyond that of safety, and even that’s limited. The “General Welfare” and “Interstate Commerce” clauses of the constitution have been prostituted beyond common sense… And it’s high time citizens of this country wake up to that fact. There isn’t anything preventing a local or state government from setting standards, or even the outright banning… But the Feds have no authority, and that’s a simple fact.

.

For the record the federal government doesnt have the authority to do many of the things they are doing, not the least of which is mandating that i purchase health care. we are in a whole new world of government over stepping authority.

 

[olyman]

Once again, the individual RIGHTS of a jerk to pollute his neighbor's air, infringes on the RIGHTS of the neighbor to breathe clear air.

It works both ways.

Ever gone jogging during a severe inversion in the winter before EPA air regulations? Cough cough.

YUP.. ALL woodstoves should be banned,,and everything in america should be under epa's FORCED wonderful non biased regulations..them educated idiots,,are idiots...do as they say,,not as they do..more leftists subversive regulations...

 

[olyman]

First of all, where does this ignorant idea that pre-EPA stoves were inefficient come from? If the operator understands the principles involved, uses seasoned wood, installs a flue damper and adjusts it correctly, a (so-called) “smokehauser” burns highly efficient, with little or no smoke. Yesterday morning I filled my “old smokehauser” with oak at 4:00 AM atop a good bed of coals, got it burning good, closed the door and set the flue damper. When I left for work there was only a tiny bit of white smoke/steam coming from the chimney. The temperature never went above freezing yesterday and when I got home at 5:30 PM (13½ hours after loading it) the house was 76-degrees and there was a solid bed of coals in the “old smokehauser” still making heat! I asked the wife if she had reloaded during the day… Her answer… “Good lord, NO! It’s been like an oven in here all day! And by the way, I haven’t cleaned the old brick chimney in 18 years, but I check it often and never find anything more than a thin coating of soot. That’s pretty damn clean and efficient in my book!

Second, the EPA regulations have nothing to with efficiency… never did, never will. It’s all about the (so-called)emissions… C’mon, your brand new 4-cylinder, EPA compliant car pumps more dangerous crap into the air than any “old smokehauser” ever will… and if’n you’re burning an ethanol blend, it’s even worse. This whole “EPA wood-burning appliance” thing is driven by special interest groups, bleeding-heart tree-huggers and such. Don’t even try to argue with me on this because you have absolutely no chance of swaying my opinion… I don’t “buy into” any BS from the EPA or any other group, I do my own research and comparisons.

Third, it doesn’t matter what you believe about the EPA. You can argue all you want about the “good” or the “bad” they do… it still doesn’t matter. The Federal Government does not have the Constitutional authority to “regulate” wood-burning appliance standards (plus a ton more crap) beyond that of safety, and even that’s limited. The “General Welfare” and “Interstate Commerce” clauses of the constitution have been prostituted beyond common sense… And it’s high time citizens of this country wake up to that fact. There isn’t anything preventing a local or state government from setting standards, or even the outright banning… But the Feds have no authority, and that’s a simple fact.

The EPA, and most every other “regulatory” federal agency should be abolished (such as the Department of Energy). It is the job of congress to “regulate interstate commerce” and “provide for the general welfare” through the passage of clear-cut law… The lazy bums have no authority to create a “regulatory” agency and pass that job off on them, wasting huge sums of tax-payer dollars. But that would mean the lazy bums would actually have to work, actually have to learn how the real world works, and then they’d have to actually agree on something… which explains why we have these BS “regulatory” agency’s… doesn’t it? Those defending the EPA, or any of its policies, are like a group of sheep being led by wolves.

ppzzziiingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!! you just pissed off,,every tree hugging and leftist of this forum..good on yah....

 

[olyman]

What! Didn't you know the turkey farm was there when you moved? Personal responsibility and all that?

As far as the off grid poor shivering families go, they are most likely refugees from the city, who are afeared of the "gubbmint" spend big bucks on ammo, maybe collect disability from the gubbmint and are growing an illegal herb, or have a little chemical operation going. If they are into herb growing, they are doing just fine in a cash economy of their own.

See, I can stereotype too!

yep.. and all government workers,,,are workers..sterotyping is fun.....

 

[Ayatollah]

Interesting reading,

We live in California; Sacramento to be precise. While the winters aren't normally freezing, we do see the 20's. When we moved from a small bungalow style house downtown to a two story in the county, we found the two fireplaces, one up and one downstairs, were not practical, and one not enough. So we added an osburn 2200 with the bay window for aesthetics, and after a learning curve, made it work. A couple years ago, the county began implementing "no burn", and "burn cleanly only" days for home fires. They set the standards for particulates, and the time runs fromNovember through early march. So if there's no particulate problem, you can burn any day, and if there's slight particulate problem, you are only supposed to burn if you have an EPA certified insert or stove. And of course, there are "no burn" days when the particulate is supposedly bad. The county implemented a complaint process for neighbors or maybe joggers or whatever to report fires on no burn days. They do act on complaints, as I know someone who was cited last year. First time is 50.00 fine. They also do roaming patrols from time to time, but that is according to them. I believe it though. My wife and I just applied for a waiver due to financial hardship, because our gas and electric bill, as well as our installed equipment is need ...well, more financing. the waiver form asks lots of personal information too. I collected about 4 cords of wood from free sources this summer, oak, walnut, and eucalyptus, and having invested all the time and back breaking labor, I think it's best we use it. This home heating crackdown is a bit of an intrusion, and wouldn't be a necessity at all if the state would stop importing more people to pollute the air. Obviously the plan is to take away the quality of life for the existing residents and redistribute it as many new mouth from mecksico that might end up willing to pay whatever taxes and put up with whatever the bureaucracy dishes out or requires of them.
Anyway, the looming concern is that soon the county will install various detectors to find fires similar to those now in use in towns like Palo alto that sniff out gunfire. What's probably coming is a permitting process for fireplaces that will be fee based, so fires will end up a novelty instead of a staple. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is not so much the particulate in the air and it's relation to our health that's at issue. I say that because at the same time the restrictions are going into effect, the county is releasing criminals by the trainload due to budget cuts. The point being, they just don't think that highly of us to protect our health, as more people die from criminals than smoke related problems.

For those who think it's just those crazy Californians, don't live in blissful ignorance too long, because this is spreading all over the US. The feds are the onse pushing this on the states, and the states requiring it of the counties. And by the way; the feds don't think that highly of your health either, as they voluntarily let a couple millions criminals from south of the border have free rein in your country knowing full well they are killing and injuring thousands more Americans than die of smoke inhalation each year also. I have my own speculative reasons as to why they would like to see fire burners snuffed out, or at least cut back in draconian fashion, but lest I sound like a conspiracy theorist, I shall forgo that for now. The point was, you are next eventually

I hope we get our waiver this year, as I am getting pretty learned on the use of this osburn unit. The one problem I believe we have though, is the need for a flue control. the chimney stack is pretty high being that this is a two story, and I think the resulting draft is pulling too much of our heat out now.

 

[Encore]

Wow that's just incredible to me! Best of luck with the waiver

 

[roger m]

yes that sucks, the best of luck to you!

 

[deerlakejens]

And to think that the EPA is a creation of that old lefty, Richard Milhous Nixon! What inconvenience won't those Republicans come up with next? Oh, that's right, Homeland Security.

 

[Whitespider]

It ain’t about left or right, Democrats or Republicans deerlakejens. But, because you brought it up, I’m gonna’ correct you. First of all, the whole “EPA” thing was set in motion by a overwhelmingly Democrat controlled congress in 1969 when they passed the “National Environmental Policy Act” and sent it to Nixon’s desk. Nixon was a lot of things, but he was not a fool… He saw where this was going, and rather than let a Democrat congress take credit for “saving the planet” he stole the credit for himself. The “EPA” was not a Republican or Nixon idea… It was the bleeding-heart liberal Democrats that came up with it; Nixon just stole the glory for himself. As a direct response to the Democrat’s “National Environmental Policy Act”, Nixon submitted Reorganization Plan No. 3 in 1970 and accomplished four political goals…

1. He stole the credit and glory from the Democrats… and the bleeding-heart idiots still don’t realize it.
2. The “Plan” eliminated several smaller agencies and moved certain responsibilities from other agencies. This in effect kept his conservative base happy because at the time it streamlined and reduced the size of Federal Government… Ya’ know?... “Smaller government and lower taxes”.
3. It quieted the shouts from flower-children, tree-huggers and other bleeding-hearts of the day because it appeared as though “something” was being done.
4. Nixon was a sly fox, and I’m sure he secretly laughed about this many times. This new “EPA” would be controlled directly by the White House, not congress. At the time both the House and the Senate majorities was overwhelmingly Democrat… Those idiot bleeding-heart liberals, in their zeal to “save the planet”, approved the Nixon plan using “special Congressional procedures”. Those giddy-blind Democrats in congress had just handed Nixon vast amounts of power… power he could wield without any congressional approval. Nixon had outsmarted them again, simply by using their own bleeding-heart emotion to do it.

The big downside to this whole fiasco is that we now must live under the ideology of whomever is sitting in the Oval Office… Because the White House directly controls the EPA.

 

[Whitespider]

Oh…. If, and when, the Department of Homeland Security starts to impact our wood-burning appliances, or the equipment we use to feed them, I’ll set the record straight on that also. But as of right now it has no bearing to this board, or thread.

 

[RacerX]

I realize that this is a wood burning forum but you need to remember that wood burners make up an almost immeasurable percentage of the population of this country. Throw in a good number who burn green wood and all sorts of other junk and there goes the wood burning industry. Many of the recent regulations that have been put forth by State governments were in response to complaints from people living near wood burners.

The issue isn't solely about someones right to burn whatever they want it's about the rights of everyone who need to breathe clean air.

 

[ijon1]

And speaking of the department of energy how have they worked out since they started? Have they got us energy independent? Their biggest claim to fame is adding more people to their payroll.

 

[Chris-PA]

The big downside to this whole fiasco is that we now must live under the ideology of whomever is sitting in the Oval Office…

The only thing that changes with the occupant of the Oval Office are the hot-button issues they push to get the "base" fired up. Nothing of any consequence changes at all, perfectly illustrated by the last election. They pull our strings and we dance - but I don't dance anymore.

The post by Ayatollah was interesting, but carry it further. The reason so many of us are having trouble financially and why the economy continues to collapse is the increasing cost of fossil fuel energy. More and more people trying to live in places that are not viable for the population levels, so when people do simple things like burning a wood stove it's a problem because there's too many people there. So they attempt to push them to use fossil fuel energy that is considered "normal", which continues to increase in cost, and which they're less and less able to afford. It won't work because it cannot work, so in the end it must change. That change will probably be chaotic and unmanaged.

There are people using these issues to pursue their own agendas or line their own pockets, but that is not the cause, it's merely a symptom. The root cause is that we're running out of affordable energy, which cannot be fixed. So some of the people who live in places that cannot support large populations without the input of fossil fuel energy get priced out. They try to stay by switching to wood for heat, but how many people can Sacramento support on wood heat? Too many people there, not enough energy to support them.

Wood heat is not viable every place, and it won't last long if 300 million try it either. On the other hand we cannot support 300 million without cheap fossil fuel energy either. These are the forces that are driving the changes we're all seeing, not who's in the Oval Office or what rules the EPA is setting up. We're a nation sleepwalking along assuming things will keep on they way they've been, passing laws and regulations based on assumptions that are totally false, or trying to fix/change a system that can no longer function.

As for local towns and villages, let them set up whatever rules they want to and let the locals work it out. It's always been that way and always will. When you live in a village or town you have to deal with more rules, it's just part of life. Churches, towns, schools, social groups of all kinds have rules. If you want less of that then get to a more rural place, but you'll have to be able to do more stuff for yourself. But even there, you have to take other people into account. When you have no fuel for your chainsaw and you have to switch to a 6' whipsaw, then there's another human being on the handle at the other end and the simple act of sawing becomes an activity where you must accommodate another person's wishes.

Complaining about who's in the Oval Office or who's running the EPA is irrelevant - it's how things used to work but it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Ayatollah]

It's an interesting point WoodHeatWarrior brought up about the energy in certain areas. Gas heat has been in the news around here lately over the explosions of pipelines. The vessels needed to hold the compressed gas are now starting to buckle because of the need to increase the volumne and corresponding pressures to meet the increased needs of the population. It does highlight what he was saying. The industry will respond with better pipe materials eventually, but for now we are living above some volatile materials. The companies are running around performing tests frantically trying to contain and prevent future explosions, but yes, increased demand has strained an unprepared system. One big explosion occurred just a few miles from my home, and I was close by when she blew. It took only one and a half homes with it as I recall, but at least one life as well. Carelessly tended fires take lives also, so my point wouldn't be about the risk comparison, but rather WoodHeatWarriors claim of stretching resources too quickly in certain areas.

Don't even go there with the electric heat option, as that will drain your monthly income quickly. Sacramento isn't devoid of electric generation, even after closing our nuke plant many years ago. But the grid is like the stock market, and the product is bartered all over the west coast, and heavily leveraged by the time it gets to the user. So we may be paying the investments of those in Colorado or Arizona even on the power generated by local dams. Electricity is pretty finite product, and just like toilet paper and oil, even when there's a surplus, the marketing powers keep the price up. The same folks are leveraging that which is generated by rooftop home solar installs via tax and other incentives for install and equipment up front costs. They basically entice you in, but you must hook up and agree to sell the power to the grid.

This home fire control thing seems less about clean air than it is another weapon aimed at independence. If anything in America, and all over the globe for that matter, is having a war waged against it, it is independence. We hear a lot about losing freedom and liberty, but the percursor is the loss of independence. Looking all across the globe lately, smaller nations have lost independence in leaps and bounds. Europe forms a union, and now several countries are no longer independent. Libya, Egypt, and a few others also fell, and are now no longer independent. We hear a lot about the deposed iron fisted dictators and all, and I won't dispute that, but dominoes are falling in one predestined order, and what's either instigating or propelling it is a powerful combined union of independence thieves. Of course it would not have worked out for them as well had they started with the US like they did in Libya. Each region gets a different strategy applied, referring to the European union for an example again. The US is getting it too, but a bit slower and less violently...for now anyway. Learning to cope with the loss of independence is something they are teaching us bit by bit here so as to not arouse a sleeping giant. Wood fires hardly seem a linchpin in relation to independence, but you might be surprised at how far a little spark of independence can go if you are trying to stamp it out. Breaking the will for it is important if you are trying to achieve that goal. As it is, California is out there striking treaties with other nations in some perverse form of regional government building. Once that's accomplished, it becomes the accepted rule of the courts, and if Japan agrees not to pollute the air, California is bound by the governors signature on that contract. Mexico complains that we pollute their air or water, and then we agree to restrict it here. Next thing you know, we have lost our independence to a tri lateral agreement between Canada, the US, and Meheeco. Not that it might not be fair or necessary to get along with each other through treaties, but what we should fear is the huge bureaucracies and inevitable restrictions this next layer of regional governments will bring. They seek control over every resource so that their cut can be imposed. And every idea generated from within must go through that system before it can be brought to fruition.

Sorry to go off on the tangent, but that's how I see it now. By the way, it is illegal to construct an open hearth fireplace in this county now. In addition, the county has set up rules for dumping green wastes in certain areas, thereby encouraging the destruction of wood fuel through composting instead of burning or building. Little compost dumps are springing up all over the county now. Used to be that some wood fuels were hard to get rid of, and therefore ended up being given away or even paid to be hauled away for firewood. Now, thanks to either tax incentives, grants, and restrictions, wood can be disposed of for free in many places. My hauling business went to hell last year with it.

Protect our independence; That's the biggest threat for the moment. When that goes, freedoms and liberties will more easily be stamped out

 

[cornbread]

Well said!

Locus

 

[Chud]

I realize that this is a wood burning forum but you need to remember that wood burners make up an almost immeasurable percentage of the population of this country. Throw in a good number who burn green wood and all sorts of other junk and there goes the wood burning industry. Many of the recent regulations that have been put forth by State governments were in response to complaints from people living near wood burners.

The issue isn't solely about someones right to burn whatever they want it's about the rights of everyone who need to breathe clean air.

Jeez, they should probably shut down Duke Powers coal burning power plant than.

 

[Ironworker]

Interesting reading,

We live in California; Sacramento to be precise. While the winters aren't normally freezing, we do see the 20's. When we moved from a small bungalow style house downtown to a two story in the county, we found the two fireplaces, one up and one downstairs, were not practical, and one not enough. So we added an osburn 2200 with the bay window for aesthetics, and after a learning curve, made it work. A couple years ago, the county began implementing "no burn", and "burn cleanly only" days for home fires. They set the standards for particulates, and the time runs fromNovember through early march. So if there's no particulate problem, you can burn any day, and if there's slight particulate problem, you are only supposed to burn if you have an EPA certified insert or stove. And of course, there are "no burn" days when the particulate is supposedly bad. The county implemented a complaint process for neighbors or maybe joggers or whatever to report fires on no burn days. They do act on complaints, as I know someone who was cited last year. First time is 50.00 fine. They also do roaming patrols from time to time, but that is according to them. I believe it though. My wife and I just applied for a waiver due to financial hardship, because our gas and electric bill, as well as our installed equipment is need ...well, more financing. the waiver form asks lots of personal information too. I collected about 4 cords of wood from free sources this summer, oak, walnut, and eucalyptus, and having invested all the time and back breaking labor, I think it's best we use it. This home heating crackdown is a bit of an intrusion, and wouldn't be a necessity at all if the state would stop importing more people to pollute the air. Obviously the plan is to take away the quality of life for the existing residents and redistribute it as many new mouth from mecksico that might end up willing to pay whatever taxes and put up with whatever the bureaucracy dishes out or requires of them.
Anyway, the looming concern is that soon the county will install various detectors to find fires similar to those now in use in towns like Palo alto that sniff out gunfire. What's probably coming is a permitting process for fireplaces that will be fee based, so fires will end up a novelty instead of a staple. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is not so much the particulate in the air and it's relation to our health that's at issue. I say that because at the same time the restrictions are going into effect, the county is releasing criminals by the trainload due to budget cuts. The point being, they just don't think that highly of us to protect our health, as more people die from criminals than smoke related problems.

For those who think it's just those crazy Californians, don't live in blissful ignorance too long, because this is spreading all over the US. The feds are the onse pushing this on the states, and the states requiring it of the counties. And by the way; the feds don't think that highly of your health either, as they voluntarily let a couple millions criminals from south of the border have free rein in your country knowing full well they are killing and injuring thousands more Americans than die of smoke inhalation each year also. I have my own speculative reasons as to why they would like to see fire burners snuffed out, or at least cut back in draconian fashion, but lest I sound like a conspiracy theorist, I shall forgo that for now. The point was, you are next eventually

I hope we get our waiver this year, as I am getting pretty learned on the use of this osburn unit. The one problem I believe we have though, is the need for a flue control. the chimney stack is pretty high being that this is a two story, and I think the resulting draft is pulling too much of our heat out now.

The county is wrong, try and get some other burners together for a class action suit and they will leave you alone.

 

[Ayatollah]

The county is wrong, try and get some other burners together for a class action suit and they will leave you alone.

The counties are just implementing the state law at this point; To stop it, the law would have to be changed at the state level first. much harder to do.

to expand a bit on that, the California air resources board is also prescribing the type of power equipment that can be used by contractors in the area. I watched several cases working their way throught the court system here in which the county and the state have followed some contractors around and took photos of them using unapproved air compressors to power jack hammers and such. They are being sued for tens of thousands, which I'm sure they don't have, and will go out of business. Point being, the state and the counties are again implementing the state law, and they are getting thier marching orders, as well as grant money from Washington. The state then uses the whiny claim that they will lose the grant money if they don't comply with the feds whim.

 

[olyman]

It ain’t about left or right, Democrats or Republicans deerlakejens. But, because you brought it up, I’m gonna’ correct you. First of all, the whole “EPA” thing was set in motion by a overwhelmingly Democrat controlled congress in 1969 when they passed the “National Environmental Policy Act” and sent it to Nixon’s desk. Nixon was a lot of things, but he was not a fool… He saw where this was going, and rather than let a Democrat congress take credit for “saving the planet” he stole the credit for himself. The “EPA” was not a Republican or Nixon idea… It was the bleeding-heart liberal Democrats that came up with it; Nixon just stole the glory for himself. As a direct response to the Democrat’s “National Environmental Policy Act”, Nixon submitted Reorganization Plan No. 3 in 1970 and accomplished four political goals…

1. He stole the credit and glory from the Democrats… and the bleeding-heart idiots still don’t realize it.
2. The “Plan” eliminated several smaller agencies and moved certain responsibilities from other agencies. This in effect kept his conservative base happy because at the time it streamlined and reduced the size of Federal Government… Ya’ know?... “Smaller government and lower taxes”.
3. It quieted the shouts from flower-children, tree-huggers and other bleeding-hearts of the day because it appeared as though “something” was being done.
4. Nixon was a sly fox, and I’m sure he secretly laughed about this many times. This new “EPA” would be controlled directly by the White House, not congress. At the time both the House and the Senate majorities was overwhelmingly Democrat… Those idiot bleeding-heart liberals, in their zeal to “save the planet”, approved the Nixon plan using “special Congressional procedures”. Those giddy-blind Democrats in congress had just handed Nixon vast amounts of power… power he could wield without any congressional approval. Nixon had outsmarted them again, simply by using their own bleeding-heart emotion to do it.

The big downside to this whole fiasco is that we now must live under the ideology of whomever is sitting in the Oval Office… Because the White House directly controls the EPA.

thanks for the hacking of his harsh.....bleeeeeeeeeding heart leftists indeed..........

 

[sesmith]

The EPA wouldn't be interested in wood burning if there weren't air quality problems in some areas because of it. Just as people have rights to heat their homes as they want, other people have the right to breathe clean air. Cleaning up newer wood stoves and furnaces is a good thing. They are also more efficient as a result.

All you have to do is follow a 60's or 70's vintage car and breathe the exhaust from it to remind you how far we've come with vehicle emissions since then, thanks to the EPA. I remember when the air around cities burned your eyes.

I just saw 3 bald eagles overhead today. There were none when I was a kid.

Thank you EPA and NY DEC for that.