you're probably going to be better off not hiring someone based off of experience. just hire some young kid with no experience looking to get into the blue collar life (landscaping/construction/logging).
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Don’t blame the kids…
Don’t even blame the parents…
The good ol’ U-S-of-A has made them what they are.
Raising kids and growing up during “hard times”, such as the Great Depression and WWII, has made each successive generation since more selfish and self-indulgent. Basically, parents that grew up during those hard times spoiled their kids during the 50’s, 60’s… because they could. During the 70’s and 80’s those kids became parents, and they just did what their parents did, only at an elevated level. I grew-up during the 70's, and my parents handed me a generous allowance every week, bought me cars, and all kinds of stuff...and I wasn't even required to "earn" any of it (but I turned out OK despite that :msp_biggrin
. Now all those spoiled brats are running the country… and they’ve spent all the money on programs and whatnot that are teaching the kids of today that life “owes them” a cushy existence. Those spoiled brats have wasted all the hard work done by earlier generations. Our “culture” has become one that hands out money and benefits to near anyone “claiming” to be “less fortunate”… with little or no questions asked. Our culture isn’t about working hard and making something of yourself anymore, it about the “haves” and “have-nots”… and taking from the “haves” to give to the “have-nots”. Sure, there are still some “good” kids out there, but we see fewer and fewer with each generation. And it’s hard to blame the kids; they see it on TV, in school, and all around them every day… they’re taught to hate the “haves”, because it ain’t fair that they “have”. It’s the “culture” of today that creates the kids of today… it’s always been that way.
It will take some “hard times” and a couple of generations to turn it around… and those hard times are coming unless we stop letting the spoiled brats run the country (good luck with that!).
Don’t even blame the parents…
The good ol’ U-S-of-A has made them what they are.
Raising kids and growing up during “hard times”, such as the Great Depression and WWII, has made each successive generation since more selfish and self-indulgent. Basically, parents that grew up during those hard times spoiled their kids during the 50’s, 60’s… because they could. During the 70’s and 80’s those kids became parents, and they just did what their parents did, only at an elevated level. I grew-up during the 70's, and my parents handed me a generous allowance every week, bought me cars, and all kinds of stuff...and I wasn't even required to "earn" any of it (but I turned out OK despite that :msp_biggrin
. Now all those spoiled brats are running the country… and they’ve spent all the money on programs and whatnot that are teaching the kids of today that life “owes them” a cushy existence. Those spoiled brats have wasted all the hard work done by earlier generations. Our “culture” has become one that hands out money and benefits to near anyone “claiming” to be “less fortunate”… with little or no questions asked. Our culture isn’t about working hard and making something of yourself anymore, it about the “haves” and “have-nots”… and taking from the “haves” to give to the “have-nots”. Sure, there are still some “good” kids out there, but we see fewer and fewer with each generation. And it’s hard to blame the kids; they see it on TV, in school, and all around them every day… they’re taught to hate the “haves”, because it ain’t fair that they “have”. It’s the “culture” of today that creates the kids of today… it’s always been that way.It will take some “hard times” and a couple of generations to turn it around… and those hard times are coming unless we stop letting the spoiled brats run the country (good luck with that!).
AIM
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've never been to sure about the "blame the parents" thing. I do know some kids that were raised as spoiled brats and will likely always be spoiled brats. I also know some kids that were raised spoiled brats and turn out to be really hard workers.
I also know young men that were raised by drunks that don't drink and some that do.
Parental influence is something that these kids are affected by but I sometimes wonder how much influence we REALLY have.
I also think this "kids today" thing has been discussed by many generations.
I also know young men that were raised by drunks that don't drink and some that do.
Parental influence is something that these kids are affected by but I sometimes wonder how much influence we REALLY have.
I also think this "kids today" thing has been discussed by many generations.
Here is a story that I am sure some of the board members can relate to. This is about my own Son who has always in my eyes carried his share of the load when we were working together. On this day he had recently acquired his learning permit to drive and it was time to change the oil and filter in the car he drives. I could tell he was not very excited about the whole deal but so be it. We get to the shop, put the car on the ramp and after pointing out the plug, I proceed to hand him the ratchet and socket to remove the plug. He slides under the car on the creeper and just that quick slides right back out and in a matter of fact voice tells me that "you do know that when I get out of college I am going to HIRE this done so it is a huge waste of my time". To say I came uncorked would be an understatement. With some very colorful language I told him in no uncertain terms that as long as he was driving my vehicle, living under my roof, and I was paying the bills he most certainly would change oil in his car. When you are on your own and have money coming out of your rear end you can do anything that you dang well please. With that I gave the creeper and not so gentle kick back under the car because he was wasting my time now. As I stated he can carry the load on most of the jobs given to him but in this case the reminder was a little stronger. As some one stated above they will learn what they are taught. And it can not be stressed enough that you set a good example for them to learn from. He is a 22 year old college student today and since that time he watches the mileage on his car and changes the oil and filter as needed on his own. I would like to think our little conversation back when had something to do with that.
OK all you hard workin' guys. Do you explain to kids why you won't hire them back? Do you tell them what you expect them to do? Do you show them how to do it?
I have a friend who used to run a crew of kids in what you might call a "socialist" program. It was/is funded by the Federal govt. via the timber dollars that go to counties. High school kids are hired from our local, rural high school to work in the woods in the summer.
They are not allowed to use power tools. They do noxious weed pulling, fence repair, hiking trail work, campground repairs, etc.
The myth of rural (what you might call farm kids) automatically knowing how to work, and having an innate knowledge of how to do the repairs, etc. is a myth. The kids need to be shown how. She even would go over the basics, like how to potty in the woods. That's how basic you need to start with teens.
She did not assume they knew how to do something if they didn't speak up. Kids, and adults will not admit to not knowing how to do things. So, show them how and assume they don't. With adults, one can save their face by saying, "You probably already know this, but just in case, let's go over how to use the-----."
Do any of you folks claiming that the next generation is worthless ever do that?
By the way, kids who worked on her crew would say she was their favorite crew leader. She worked them hard--they got things done and had fun doing so. She had the attitude that her job was to teach them HOW to work, and part of the program was also going over how to do job interviews, write resumes, and dressing for job interviews. Our community does not have very many jobs for adults, much less kids, and this program has been excellent.
logbutcher
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm inside 'cause of downpours, what's your excuse ? :hmm3grin2orange:
Yup, every gen says the same stoopid thing: " ...these kids aren't like....". Way back our DI's and advanced training non-coms said that about us, green out of ROTC. Later it was our turn. Funny thing then and now that 'those kids' when shown what is expected of them, and how to perform with proper skills and attitude, do the right thing. Take a hard look at those serving now; they're "kids". Some of you get this, others will never. Doesn't make a difference whether in service, in academia, in business, in life.
It's the "walking in the moccasins" thing. If you haven't HAD to learn, struggled through something strange and new, had some tough and professional mentors, then had to do it correctly and maybe been corrected hard many times, you can't understand the process.
JMNSHEO
Yup, every gen says the same stoopid thing: " ...these kids aren't like....". Way back our DI's and advanced training non-coms said that about us, green out of ROTC. Later it was our turn. Funny thing then and now that 'those kids' when shown what is expected of them, and how to perform with proper skills and attitude, do the right thing. Take a hard look at those serving now; they're "kids". Some of you get this, others will never. Doesn't make a difference whether in service, in academia, in business, in life.
It's the "walking in the moccasins" thing. If you haven't HAD to learn, struggled through something strange and new, had some tough and professional mentors, then had to do it correctly and maybe been corrected hard many times, you can't understand the process.
JMNSHEO
!! i love me some "ycc" summer socialist training camps!! lol gotta retrain me some more there slow pete.. as i kind forgot how to work hard or without supervision...... good on your trainer for teaching you so good!:hmm3grin2orange:
It is NOT YCC. It is funded through the county, which gets dollars through a Payments in Lieu Of Timber Fundswhich is a program feeding money to counties. The program gets threatened to be cut off each year. That might be a good thing. Maybe then more people would be in favor of managing the forests again.
The counties get 25% of the value of any timber harvested on Federal ground. That was established to make up for not getting property taxes on the vast acreage owned by the people. It used to fund a lot of things--like roads, libraries, etc. Now get your calculator out. The timber harvest went from 200MMBF in the 1980s to 15MMBF today. MMBF is million board feet. That's quite a drop in revenue, "aint" it.
There is no camping involved either. You need to research your topic better before spouting off the rhetoric.
Sounds like you expect kids to be born with a work gene? Were you? Must we listen to "Walked in the snow barefoot uphill both ways " stories?
And to quote logbutcher, are you taking the day off due to rain? Why aint you out splittin' wood or something? Where is your work ethic? Me, I'm lazy.
I told their Pop, he is a very hard working guy himself. In retrospect I should have told them, I was just mad at the situation and did not want to deal with the kids again.
Hedgerow
HACK
I agree "sort of" here... A kid is a kid... They must be taught... I am a poor to fair teacher... It seems it takes me more energy to teach it, than do it myself... But for the sake of the next generation, it must be taught... The debate though, is, whom is to do the teaching...?
Now, to the forestry slump...
Slowp? Why is there such a dip in that industry since the 80's???
You need to get some Iowa farm/country kids... We know how to raise good workers out amongst the corn! LOL...
That being said... Parents need to take away the PSP's and x-box's and get their kids some exercise and give them some direction... I think technology is helping all our kids to become "soft". Disagree with me if you like, but when I was a kid, I was splitting wood, mowing the lawn, throwing hay, and working construction with my spare time... NOT getting arthritis in my thumbs!! :msp_sneaky:
I think parents who pay attention to their kids and teach them to be humble responsible hard workers stand a better chance their kids will be what they are taught. Parents also need to lead by example... If your kids don't see you work hard they won't want to either. I know there are exceptions to the rule but adolecent psycologists have proven that kids more often than not will become what they are taught and encouraged to be early in life. Just my 2cents...
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The Northwest Forest Plan and lawsuits from environmental organizations. It's a long story. I'll try to make it short.
Remember the Spotted Owl? That was the start. Lawsuits stopped timber sales on National Forests in the PNW. The PNW is where the National Forests grow trees exceedingly well. Logging of old growth was stopped on the west side of the Cascade Mountain range.
I'll try to keep my cynical streak out of this. In 1993? or sometime, a group of scientists convened and came up with The Northwest Forest Plan. This plan was supposed to keep the old growth standing, save the spotted owl, and at the same time keep the timber industry going.
It failed. In fact, one of the scientists quit the group because he said it was impossible to implement.
The Owl Forests (western WA, OR, and part of CA) had to divide their land up in management areas. The majority is labeled as Late Seral Reserve or LSR. That is ground that is deemed to be habitat for old growth species, and can only be logged to restore the forest to an old growth type.
There are numerous other management designations. There was one that was supposed to be for timber harvest. It was called Matrix. However, in the Matrix are still restrictions and buffers around streams, wet areas, nests, etc.
Meanwhile, the Forest Service culture was changing. About the same time, what we insiders called The Purge began. Jobs in Timber Management and Engineering were being done away with. Early retirements were offered, some of us (me) had to take lower pay and move to another region. Scientists ('ologists) were hired--many with an anti timber attitude. So, you have quite a few people who do planning who do not want trees cut, who work inside the system.
Environmental groups grew in power and it was a given that any timber sale would be appealed. If they didn't like the appeal decision, they took their case to court where the judge often issued an injunction to stop the logging, and then later, listened to the case where he made the decision on what would happen.
Judges don't have a lot of knowledge about forestry, so you can guess what happened and what kind of decisions have come on down the pike.
Lawsuits, management, and the NW plan. Our area has had a change in the top leadership, but I'm not expecting any change. Most of the "leaders" now have no timber management experience, many have come up from the ranks of Public Affairs and have very little grasp on natural resources as a whole. They are put in positions of leadership because they get along well with people.
The environmental groups still think that the last of the old growth will be cut. Our area has mass quantities of second growth plantations that are ready for harvest, but won't be.
It is a mess, and the environmental industry has done a much better job of pleading the cause of no logging than the timber industry.
For details, google Northwest Forest Plan, Timber wars, Earth First! , Center for Biological Diversity, Evergreen Magazine for a start.
I'm not saying that we could cut the same amount of timber as during the 80s. We couldn't do that and sustain it. But we could cut a heck of a lot more than we are.
That is probably the most accurate description of the whole scenario that I've read in a long time. Thanks, Slowp.
Hedgerow
HACK
Thank you Slowp... That was good info... Seems many times the do-gooders do much more harm than good... Ill bet if that land didn't belong to "The people", you would see a lot more logging going on... If it belonged to you, or I, it would be logged, AND still be Forrest...
All the hard times for the folks of your area created because of an owl???
I'll go ahead and say it....
People are more important than Owls...
All the hard times for the folks of your area created because of an owl???
I'll go ahead and say it....
People are more important than Owls...
Truck4
Head Pee On
Alot of the "blame" goes towards society as a whole these days, it does not teach much of anything anymore but how to sit on your butt and get a paycheck from the state
Both of my kids are very involved in 4-H(wife and I are club leaders) with horses and show pigs. We have a motto around our house when it comes time for chores and feeding etc....they are YOUR!! horses / show pigs so it is your responsibility to feed, take care of them, clean out pens/stalls etc, now I will give them a hand if they need it but I WILL NOT DO IT!!!, only once did the boy ask me how much he would get paid to clean out pens I told him that I would be more than willing to pay him to clean out his horse / pig pens when he started helping me pay for grain, hay, fuel to get him and his sister to the rodeo's, entry fees, p.m. on the truck and trailer etc, etc. that was the end of it. I have never been as proud of my kids as I was this last weekend at a sat/sun. rodeo, at the end of the day sat. everyone was putting their horses up in stalls and feeding etc, some of the other kids asked my kids to go play with them, my son responded with "sure as soon as we are done takeing care of our horses" one kid says well my mom and dad take care of mine for me, son respondes with "is it yours or your mom and dads horse? and if it is yours WHY are they talking care of it?" mind you he is only 10
Both of my kids are very involved in 4-H(wife and I are club leaders) with horses and show pigs. We have a motto around our house when it comes time for chores and feeding etc....they are YOUR!! horses / show pigs so it is your responsibility to feed, take care of them, clean out pens/stalls etc, now I will give them a hand if they need it but I WILL NOT DO IT!!!, only once did the boy ask me how much he would get paid to clean out pens I told him that I would be more than willing to pay him to clean out his horse / pig pens when he started helping me pay for grain, hay, fuel to get him and his sister to the rodeo's, entry fees, p.m. on the truck and trailer etc, etc. that was the end of it. I have never been as proud of my kids as I was this last weekend at a sat/sun. rodeo, at the end of the day sat. everyone was putting their horses up in stalls and feeding etc, some of the other kids asked my kids to go play with them, my son responded with "sure as soon as we are done takeing care of our horses" one kid says well my mom and dad take care of mine for me, son respondes with "is it yours or your mom and dads horse? and if it is yours WHY are they talking care of it?" mind you he is only 10
Truck4
Head Pee On
Hedgerow
HACK
Your pics...
ponyexpress976
nipple fritters
What hope is there for a society that hands out "participation trophies" at the end of a "competitive" season?
Hedgerow
HACK
Steve2910
ArboristSite Guru
Well lets make sure everybody feels good about themselves, whether or not they did anything worthwhile! When my kids started in little league, they didn't keep score. The idea was (supposedly), if no one "lost", nobody went home crying. And yeah, they all got a trophy at the end of the season.
Don't know about where you live, but around here they have "fifth grade graduation ceremonies"???
Isn't that a joke?!
