Ya gotta love a good oil thread.
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3oz of Maxima 927 with 93 e free or 3oz of Mobil 2 T same fuel. Either seems to work but Maxima smeels better just like the old Blenzall I ran in the Bultaco in early 70's
RonL
ArboristSite Operative
Yes, Ya gotta love a good oil thread
Oil technology, just like chainsaw technology, continues to evolve. Otherwise we would still be cutting down trees with fifty pound chainsaws running on 30W non detergent oil at 16:1 ratio.
I now have 7 chainsaws, as well as a number of other 2 stroke pieces of equipment. I did my due diligence and read up as much as possible before I went and bought these pieces of equipment.
I wanted to do my due diligence before I decided what oil I wanted to use in all my equipment.
In the past several months I have read hundreds, if not thousands of threads on oil. Here, on BITOG, and on various motorcycle forums. If I might sound insane this was the cause of it. Oil threads can take on a religious fervor. However, pearls of wisdom can be extracted from the endless howling. Peer reviewed technical papers and scientific testing can point you in certain directions. Racers pushing the outer limits can point you in certain directions. People working on 2 cycle engines regularly can make observations and point you in certain directions. In the end I made certain inferences as to what will serve MY purposes, and I emphasize MY purposes. If my inferences don't serves your purposes, move on. My intent is to make my saws work as efficiently as possible for as long as possible.
30W non detergent motor oil was used initially because it was what was available. Bright stock was utilized and more effective add packages were developed. 2 cycle mineral based oils evolved to the point where they performed very well. However, at this point in time nothing can convince me not to use full synthetic oils. Synthetics can be finely tune to the performance levels at hand.
Chainsaws are a marvel of modern engineering. Working chainsaws, as opposed to racing saws, have relatively mild performance as compared to the hyper performance race machines that run on exotic fuels at stratospheric speeds. Working saws are used every day and are only broken down when they need work. Racing machines are expected to produce maximum output for the length of a race and are then torn down and rebuilt. I can't see myself cutting wood all day and then spending every night rebuilding my saw. That is why I believe using the ultra high end racing oils in working chain saws may be counter productive.
Water cooled outboard engines run at lower ring temperatures and use oil tuned for that purpose. Air cooled working chainsaws run at higher ring temperatures and need add packages that are tuned to that purpose. Racing machines run at the razors edge and need the absolute highest performance oils. That is where the problem lies. I believe that the combustion temperature of the ultra racing oils that are designed to run in racing machines that spin at 23,000 RPM are too high for a chainsaw that is mildly tuned and spins at 13,000 RPM.
I have 4 liters of Motul 800 2t Off Road, 4 liters of Motul 710 2t, 1 liter of Maxima K2, and 1 liter of Bel-Ray H1R.
The RC test confirmed some beliefs I hold in regards to oil. What I can't got my head wrapped around is the fact that H1R used 15% more fuel to produce the same work. I think that H1R is at the point of burning at too high a level to be efficient in mildly tuned saws. I think that a premium ester based oil that burns at a lower level and adds to the combustion efficiency would suit my ultimate purposes.
As it stands now, I believe that either Motul 710 2t or Maxima K2 would be my best option for MY, and I emphasize MY, purposes.
I may get into studying this further or I may simply cut wood for the next 20 years and not give a ****.
As for ratios, from what I can see more oil still provides better ring seal and more power. To a point at the cost of increased consequences. Ultimately I believe I will be running at 32:1 or 40:1 (3% or 2.5%).
These are my opinions. If they contradict your opinions please don't take it as a challenge. Do what you want.
RonL
Oil technology, just like chainsaw technology, continues to evolve. Otherwise we would still be cutting down trees with fifty pound chainsaws running on 30W non detergent oil at 16:1 ratio.
I now have 7 chainsaws, as well as a number of other 2 stroke pieces of equipment. I did my due diligence and read up as much as possible before I went and bought these pieces of equipment.
I wanted to do my due diligence before I decided what oil I wanted to use in all my equipment.
In the past several months I have read hundreds, if not thousands of threads on oil. Here, on BITOG, and on various motorcycle forums. If I might sound insane this was the cause of it. Oil threads can take on a religious fervor. However, pearls of wisdom can be extracted from the endless howling. Peer reviewed technical papers and scientific testing can point you in certain directions. Racers pushing the outer limits can point you in certain directions. People working on 2 cycle engines regularly can make observations and point you in certain directions. In the end I made certain inferences as to what will serve MY purposes, and I emphasize MY purposes. If my inferences don't serves your purposes, move on. My intent is to make my saws work as efficiently as possible for as long as possible.
30W non detergent motor oil was used initially because it was what was available. Bright stock was utilized and more effective add packages were developed. 2 cycle mineral based oils evolved to the point where they performed very well. However, at this point in time nothing can convince me not to use full synthetic oils. Synthetics can be finely tune to the performance levels at hand.
Chainsaws are a marvel of modern engineering. Working chainsaws, as opposed to racing saws, have relatively mild performance as compared to the hyper performance race machines that run on exotic fuels at stratospheric speeds. Working saws are used every day and are only broken down when they need work. Racing machines are expected to produce maximum output for the length of a race and are then torn down and rebuilt. I can't see myself cutting wood all day and then spending every night rebuilding my saw. That is why I believe using the ultra high end racing oils in working chain saws may be counter productive.
Water cooled outboard engines run at lower ring temperatures and use oil tuned for that purpose. Air cooled working chainsaws run at higher ring temperatures and need add packages that are tuned to that purpose. Racing machines run at the razors edge and need the absolute highest performance oils. That is where the problem lies. I believe that the combustion temperature of the ultra racing oils that are designed to run in racing machines that spin at 23,000 RPM are too high for a chainsaw that is mildly tuned and spins at 13,000 RPM.
I have 4 liters of Motul 800 2t Off Road, 4 liters of Motul 710 2t, 1 liter of Maxima K2, and 1 liter of Bel-Ray H1R.
The RC test confirmed some beliefs I hold in regards to oil. What I can't got my head wrapped around is the fact that H1R used 15% more fuel to produce the same work. I think that H1R is at the point of burning at too high a level to be efficient in mildly tuned saws. I think that a premium ester based oil that burns at a lower level and adds to the combustion efficiency would suit my ultimate purposes.
As it stands now, I believe that either Motul 710 2t or Maxima K2 would be my best option for MY, and I emphasize MY, purposes.
I may get into studying this further or I may simply cut wood for the next 20 years and not give a ****.
As for ratios, from what I can see more oil still provides better ring seal and more power. To a point at the cost of increased consequences. Ultimately I believe I will be running at 32:1 or 40:1 (3% or 2.5%).
These are my opinions. If they contradict your opinions please don't take it as a challenge. Do what you want.
RonL
bucknfeller
Opportunistic Hooligan
Richard C
ArboristSite Operative
I like oil threads! Some of the posts however sound like they were written by a fellow with a paper 904jrg0.
Many years ago I used straight motor oil as per the instructions that came with the saw, this was in the 70s. Than I began using cheep 2cycle like Valvoline. Now I use Homelite 2cycle synthetic blend. I used to slop in extra oil until I had to take my 034 apart to free the rings.
I do like to hear the what the pros are using, that's why I began using synthetic.
It's a pain on any forum or thread when guys come on saying " we've already talked about that" " blank this thread". Just go away, if your mind is made up and closed.
when I worked in or ran a shop, I always liked to hear what a mechanic had to say and why he thought that. Instead of: Hug Hug! Me and BoBo do it this way, everybody shut up.
Maybe this should be in the thread: Should I start a fight. But thats what I think!
Many years ago I used straight motor oil as per the instructions that came with the saw, this was in the 70s. Than I began using cheep 2cycle like Valvoline. Now I use Homelite 2cycle synthetic blend. I used to slop in extra oil until I had to take my 034 apart to free the rings.
I do like to hear the what the pros are using, that's why I began using synthetic.
It's a pain on any forum or thread when guys come on saying " we've already talked about that" " blank this thread". Just go away, if your mind is made up and closed.
when I worked in or ran a shop, I always liked to hear what a mechanic had to say and why he thought that. Instead of: Hug Hug! Me and BoBo do it this way, everybody shut up.
Maybe this should be in the thread: Should I start a fight. But thats what I think!
RonL
ArboristSite Operative
These oil threads may become a moot point.
With the government's insistence on interjecting itself into, and controlling all aspects of our lives, future saws, if they exist, will be locked.
You will be mandated to use EPA approved premix.
RonL
With the government's insistence on interjecting itself into, and controlling all aspects of our lives, future saws, if they exist, will be locked.
You will be mandated to use EPA approved premix.
RonL
Guido Salvage
Supreme Saw Whoreder
Wouldn't be a true AS thread without someone blaming "the government".
RonL
ArboristSite Operative
Ridiculous!
Everyone knows that safflower oil, with its lower flash point, provides a cleaner burn.
Everyone knows that safflower oil, with its lower flash point, provides a cleaner burn.
thomasjoven
ArboristSite Lurker
Anyone here use a product called Ethanol Shield? I heard Startron is basically kerosene and should not be used. A local gas station sells E-free gas but it's 91 octane and who knows how long its been sitting there?
LegDeLimber
Addicted to ArboristSite
DSS- Thanks for the pic. sorta helped set off a bit of fond memories.
(I googled couple pages and only found a pdf of an EPA report.)
=
(Apologies to bucknfeller for my brain cramp )
Should of quoted -RonL
I was wondering pretty much the same thing about the H1R.
I figured that it was affecting the burn efficiency and or displacing the fuel
with higher ignition temp things, to give those results.
(I googled couple pages and only found a pdf of an EPA report.)
=
(Apologies to bucknfeller for my brain cramp )
Should of quoted -RonL
I was wondering pretty much the same thing about the H1R.
I figured that it was affecting the burn efficiency and or displacing the fuel
with higher ignition temp things, to give those results.
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Ron, there's much truth in what you've said.
The heavy oils like Motul 800, HR1, R50 and so on, are very viscous oils, with high flash points and high amounts of Polybutene and other additives. These additives, along with the syn ester base stocks, have incredibly high shear strength and load capacity. The issues you can run into with these oils is slow propagation through the engine, slow burn off and long term buildup. This is do to the lack of fresh oil quickly and easily making it's way through the engine. The thicker oils also have more resistance, this equals more drag.
There is no doubt oils like Motul 800, H1R and R50 offer the best shear strength and all out protection, especially under high loads and high rpm engines. However, in most every other two cycle engine the thinner ester oils are likely a better choice, in fact they MAY be the better choice period. It really comes down to understanding which oil does what and making your dissension based on what you want out of an oil.
Randy I'm still experimenting with different oils, but so far the best balanced oil I've used to date is K2. I have some Motull 800 that I plan on trying, if it cane provide the load bearing characteristic I like, yet burns relatively clean, it'll be my go to oil. I hear H1R may do just that, but the fuel and heat issues associated with that oil is a big down side IMHO.
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MS460WOODCHUCK
Addicted to ArboristSite
Stihl ultra 44:1, no good reason I guess.
for the Mini-Macs:
bucknfeller
Opportunistic Hooligan
You must have been thinking of someone else... I have not added anything productive, or informative to this thread :hmm3grin2orange:
MEATSAW
ArboristSite Guru
Silly me. These oil threads get me all confused.
casual cutter
ArboristSite Operative
Fuel is Chevron 92 octane, or Shell 91 octane, 'cause neither contain ethanol where I live.
Mix is regular Stihl, at 50:1, 'cause that's what the owners manual tells me to run.
Bar oil is Stihl Medium, 'cause it seems to work OK.
Mix is regular Stihl, at 50:1, 'cause that's what the owners manual tells me to run.
Bar oil is Stihl Medium, 'cause it seems to work OK.
kmcinms
ArboristSite Guru
87 no-corn @ 50:1 w/SuperTech . Werx for me. Run the same in my Banshee, boat, trimmer........:hmm3grin2orange:
greg409
ArboristSite Guru
Let's see,
in the 50's-60's my dad & I generally used 30# @ 16:1 (leaded fuel)
in the 70's i used pennzoil 2-stroke (air-cooled) @ 32- 40:1 (leaded or unleaded)
in the 80's same oil, same mix, unleaded
in the 90's same (maybe 50:1 on some stuff)
around 2000, I got a variety of 2stroke mix required stuff and just went 87unleaded, 32:1 pennzoil 2-stroke on every 2stroke I owned.
I've diddled around with all the new-tech fluids over the years (including race motors), but not had a oil related failure that I can recall.
I think most failures are operator/maintnance related issues - mechanical neglect will not heal itself.
That's my take
luck,greg
in the 50's-60's my dad & I generally used 30# @ 16:1 (leaded fuel)
in the 70's i used pennzoil 2-stroke (air-cooled) @ 32- 40:1 (leaded or unleaded)
in the 80's same oil, same mix, unleaded
in the 90's same (maybe 50:1 on some stuff)
around 2000, I got a variety of 2stroke mix required stuff and just went 87unleaded, 32:1 pennzoil 2-stroke on every 2stroke I owned.
I've diddled around with all the new-tech fluids over the years (including race motors), but not had a oil related failure that I can recall.
I think most failures are operator/maintnance related issues - mechanical neglect will not heal itself.
That's my take
luck,greg
