White oak burns up fast -normal?

[haveawoody]

White oak burns great for me, I bet you have your air settings the same as cherry and the oak is real dry burning up fast and producing lots of heat.
Once your white oak is burning good and you have a few coals going back off on the air until you have flickering flames.
It will easily out BTU cherry and out burn it for length of time.

Those dense hardwoods produce the best heat when they are burning hot with the smallest amount of air possible.
To much air and they produce a hot chimney but not much more heat in the house and not much longer burn times than anything else.

 

[Whitespider]

I had horrible results burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA (secondary burn) firebox. Yeah, the hard, dense wood will coal-up relatively fast into large coals that burn for hours and will heat like crazy... but they need air (oxygen) to burn and heat. The problem with a secondary burn firebox is the air comes in over the top... it needs to be coming in under the coal bed, flowing up through it. Ya' can't blow air across the top of a coal bed and expect it to heat, especially oak... and the coal bed is where the long burn time comes from.

When I tried burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA box I'd get a deep, deep bed of coals with very little heat. When I'd try stirring 'em up to get 'em heating I'd find huge chunks of blackened (and cold) wood under the coals... even complete splits. This was happening because only the top layer of coals were burning with any authority... the lower coals were not getting the required amount of air. I had the same problem (to a lesser degree) with elm, which also tends to coal-up... deep bed of coals, poor or mediocre heat. I got my best performance with wood that doesn't coal-up much, like pine and fir which produces flame for most of the relatively short burn cycle, and few (short-lived) coals... but at least it would heat for the entire cycle‼

I went back to a traditional firebox... I'm done with any firebox bringing air in over the top. Yeah, it burned clean... but if it won't heat, so what?? Yeah, 36 hours later I'd find embers still burning... but what good is a long-azz burning coal bed if it won't heat?? Besides, White Oak doesn't produce a lot of flames for any real length of time, it coals-up... so what friggin' good is a secondary burn firebox?? (Did you know those boxes are developed and tested with dimensional lumber, fir lumber, 2×4 and 4×4 nailed together with fir spacers creating space between the boards, called cribs... yeah, that's "real world", give me a break.) On cold nights now, I actually intentionally build a deep coal bed with White (Bur) Oak in my traditional box... I start with a full fuel load after supper and add a couple splits every couple hours or so until bed. I'll get 8, 10 even 12 inches of coals on the grate... and when that draft blower kicks in forcing a little more air under, and up through the coal bed (would be like opening the draft control a little) it'll pump-out some serious friggin' heat. It gets hot enough you wouldn't wanna' stand close to the cast door for very long. I have no problem getting overnight burns that heat the entire house all night.


addendum; If your "thing" is watching the flames through a glass door, then White Oak ain't your wood... it don't flame very much or very long, it's lousy "open fireplace" wood. But when it's burned properly, with air fed under the fire, it's ideal "heating" fuel... plenty of heat for plenty of time.
*

 

[sunfish]

Is White Oak and Bur Oak the same?

 

[Whitespider]

Bur Oak is in the White Oak family.
There are literally dozens of different "White" Oak species, some have the word "White" in the name, many do not.
As far as firewood characteristics, the differences are minimal or inconsequential for most... just as there is little, if any difference between most of the dozens of "Red" Oaks.
The "White" Oaks (including the Bur Oak) contain considerably less moisture and are heavier/denser than the "Red" Oaks.
*

 

[sunfish]

Thanks Spidy, what I figured, but wasn't too sure.

Agreed on the white oak vs red oak...

 

[oldspark]

I had horrible results burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA (secondary burn) firebox. Yeah, the hard, dense wood will coal-up relatively fast into large coals that burn for hours and will heat like crazy... but they need air (oxygen) to burn and heat. The problem with a secondary burn firebox is the air comes in over the top... it needs to be coming in under the coal bed, flowing up through it. Ya' can't blow air across the top of a coal bed and expect it to heat, especially oak... and the coal bed is where the long burn time comes from.

When I tried burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA box I'd get a deep, deep bed of coals with very little heat. When I'd try stirring 'em up to get 'em heating I'd find huge chunks of blackened (and cold) wood under the coals... even complete splits. This was happening because only the top layer of coals were burning with any authority... the lower coals were not getting the required amount of air. I had the same problem (to a lesser degree) with elm, which also tends to coal-up... deep bed of coals, poor or mediocre heat. I got my best performance with wood that doesn't coal-up much, like pine and fir which produces flame for most of the relatively short burn cycle, and few (short-lived) coals... but at least it would heat for the entire cycle‼

I went back to a traditional firebox... I'm done with any firebox bringing air in over the top. Yeah, it burned clean... but if it won't heat, so what?? Yeah, 36 hours later I'd find embers still burning... but what good is a long-azz burning coal bed if it won't heat?? Besides, White Oak doesn't produce a lot of flames for any real length of time, it coals-up... so what friggin' good is a secondary burn firebox?? (Did you know those boxes are developed and tested with dimensional lumber, fir lumber, 2×4 and 4×4 nailed together with fir spacers creating space between the boards, called cribs... yeah, that's "real world", give me a break.) On cold nights now, I actually intentionally build a deep coal bed with White (Bur) Oak in my traditional box... I start with a full fuel load after supper and add a couple splits every couple hours or so until bed. I'll get 8, 10 even 12 inches of coals on the grate... and when that draft blower kicks in forcing a little more air under, and up through the coal bed (would be like opening the draft control a little) it'll pump-out some serious friggin' heat. It gets hot enough you wouldn't wanna' stand close to the cast door for very long. I have no problem getting overnight burns that heat the entire house all night.


addendum; If your "thing" is watching the flames through a glass door, then White Oak ain't your wood... it don't flame very much or very long, it's lousy "open fireplace" wood. But when it's burned properly, with air fed under the fire, it's ideal "heating" fuel... plenty of heat for plenty of time.
*

I understand exactly what you are talking about (burnt a Nashua for 30 years) but My Summit has some air coming in down low I believe, the primary air on the Nashua came in fairly high in the door, it burnt perfectly with no extra coal buildup.
I have thought about putting my old stove back in the house but stuck with the 6 inch chimney now.
Been sorta looking for the small Nashua with the 6 inch flue.
I would like to think I can make the Summit to work like I want.
Your post makes me wonder about it, some people seem really defensive of the EPA stoves

 

[Chris-PA]

I would like to think I can make the Summit to work like I want.
Your post makes me wonder about it, some people seem really defensive of the EPA stoves

Some of us really like the way they perform and don't have the problems that others have. Then again, there is a lot of variation in equipment, flues, expectations and practices.

I don't have an issue with excessive coaling and did not notice white oak to be a particular problem in that regard.

 

[theswampthing]

I had horrible results burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA (secondary burn) firebox. Yeah, the hard, dense wood will coal-up relatively fast into large coals that burn for hours and will heat like crazy... but they need air (oxygen) to burn and heat. The problem with a secondary burn firebox is the air comes in over the top... it needs to be coming in under the coal bed, flowing up through it. Ya' can't blow air across the top of a coal bed and expect it to heat, especially oak... and the coal bed is where the long burn time comes from.

When I tried burning White (Bur) Oak in my EPA box I'd get a deep, deep bed of coals with very little heat. When I'd try stirring 'em up to get 'em heating I'd find huge chunks of blackened (and cold) wood under the coals... even complete splits. This was happening because only the top layer of coals were burning with any authority... the lower coals were not getting the required amount of air. I had the same problem (to a lesser degree) with elm, which also tends to coal-up... deep bed of coals, poor or mediocre heat. I got my best performance with wood that doesn't coal-up much, like pine and fir which produces flame for most of the relatively short burn cycle, and few (short-lived) coals... but at least it would heat for the entire cycle‼

I went back to a traditional firebox... I'm done with any firebox bringing air in over the top. Yeah, it burned clean... but if it won't heat, so what?? Yeah, 36 hours later I'd find embers still burning... but what good is a long-azz burning coal bed if it won't heat?? Besides, White Oak doesn't produce a lot of flames for any real length of time, it coals-up... so what friggin' good is a secondary burn firebox?? (Did you know those boxes are developed and tested with dimensional lumber, fir lumber, 2×4 and 4×4 nailed together with fir spacers creating space between the boards, called cribs... yeah, that's "real world", give me a break.) On cold nights now, I actually intentionally build a deep coal bed with White (Bur) Oak in my traditional box... I start with a full fuel load after supper and add a couple splits every couple hours or so until bed. I'll get 8, 10 even 12 inches of coals on the grate... and when that draft blower kicks in forcing a little more air under, and up through the coal bed (would be like opening the draft control a little) it'll pump-out some serious friggin' heat. It gets hot enough you wouldn't wanna' stand close to the cast door for very long. I have no problem getting overnight burns that heat the entire house all night.


addendum; If your "thing" is watching the flames through a glass door, then White Oak ain't your wood... it don't flame very much or very long, it's lousy "open fireplace" wood. But when it's burned properly, with air fed under the fire, it's ideal "heating" fuel... plenty of heat for plenty of time.
*

This happens to me about once a week. I end up with a deep bed of coals that I just kind of have to wait on to burn off so can clean the box out, and start over with a new fire. Same deal, white oak, and an EPA. It's starting to hurt my feelings a bit.

 

[oldspark]

Probably. White oak worked great for me but I don't consider it super wood or anything. My favorite is still white ash, but all these higher density woods will do the job. One of the other differences may be that using a stove with a glass door in the living space one is more likely to make adjustments to the air inlet to suit the individual load of wood.

White Ash is great wood (I like Green Ash for a less dense wood also), what do you like about the White Ash over the Oak?

 

[stihly dan]

I think any stove/furnace that has a grate will be fine without air coming from under. The grate will let the ash fall and the air will find its way to the bottom. My furnace air is at front bottom but not under, it burns the coals awesome. Kind of like drying a split on the ground compared to on a pallet.

 

[oldspark]

Some of us really like the way they perform and don't have the problems that others have. Then again, there is a lot of variation in equipment, flues, expectations and practices.

I don't have an issue with excessive coaling and did not notice white oak to be a particular problem in that regard.

I don't think I have ever been able to get my EPA stove to work like it should, the non cat EPA stoves are some what known for the coaling issue due to the quick burning of the gasses.

 

[Chris-PA]

White Ash is great wood (I like Green Ash for a less dense wood also), what do you like about the White Ash over the Oak?

White ash is just soooo easy. It splits easy (so does oak, usually), it's usually straight grained and stacks nice, it lights fast and the burn is consistent, it's forgiving if not quite dry enough. Also, it is not so dirty bringing it in the house as oak. With oak, the layer under the ark often goes punky, especially with branches.

Although green ash is supposed to be common here in PA, I only had one that I knew of. They seem to have been hit harder by the Ash Yellows. A branch fell off that tree during the Halloween storm two years ago and hit my daughter on the head, requiring a trip to the hospital. It is gone now!

 

[Chris-PA]

I don't think I have ever been able to get my EPA stove to work like it should, the non cat EPA stoves are some what known for the coaling issue due to the quick burning of the gasses.

Well, it is how they work - the hot coals cook off the volatiles and these mix with the oxygen from above and combust before going up the flue. Mine both have good airflow and the coals don't accumulate excessively. I find stacking orientation to be very important - the bottom logs go in end-on to the door so that air from the door wash can flow in underneath. The next layer goes in cross-wise to the lower layer

If coals do build up (as in when I want more output at the tail end of the burn and load it sooner) then I rake all the coals from one side to the middle and place a split in there. Then I rake the coals away from the other side and put a split there. The coals are now bunched in the middle instead of the third split I would normally add. I place the second layer on top as usual, sometimes a third layer if there is room. It'll roar off and those coals will be gone shortly.

 

[theswampthing]

Well, it is how they work - the hot coals cook off the volatiles and these mix with the oxygen from above and combust before going up the flue. Mine both have good airflow and the coals don't accumulate excessively. I find stacking orientation to be very important - the bottom logs go in end-on to the door so that air from the door wash can flow in underneath. The next layer goes in cross-wise to the lower layer

If coals do build up (as in when I want more output at the tail end of the burn and load it sooner) then I rake all the coals from one side to the middle and place a split in there. Then I rake the coals away from the other side and put a split there. The coals are now bunched in the middle instead of the third split I would normally add. I place the second layer on top as usual, sometimes a third layer if there is room. It'll roar off and those coals will be gone shortly.

Think I might try this. I have a bed about 6" deep that isn't doing crap to heat.

 

[SWI Don]

Well, it is how they work - the hot coals cook off the volatiles and these mix with the oxygen from above and combust before going up the flue. Mine both have good airflow and the coals don't accumulate excessively. I find stacking orientation to be very important - the bottom logs go in end-on to the door so that air from the door wash can flow in underneath. The next layer goes in cross-wise to the lower layer

If coals do build up (as in when I want more output at the tail end of the burn and load it sooner) then I rake all the coals from one side to the middle and place a split in there. Then I rake the coals away from the other side and put a split there. The coals are now bunched in the middle instead of the third split I would normally add. I place the second layer on top as usual, sometimes a third layer if there is room. It'll roar off and those coals will be gone shortly.

I load mine the same, raking the coals up front and center. My stove has primary air being fed in front and center with airwash air fed across the top of the door. With oak I have found that I have to run more air than with ash to make it burn hot. Different woods burn different and need different air settings if you have the option.

 

[kyrob]

Thanks for the replies guys. No pics tonight as we just got in. I did however bring in some different wood to try tonight so I will post tomorrow if anything changed as far as burn time and such.

 

[Whitespider]

I would like to think I can make the Summit to work like I want.
Your post makes me wonder about it, some people seem really defensive of the EPA stoves

Mine was a Spectrum, a smaller version of your Summit. I tried everything I could think of to get mine to run like I wanted... nothing, I mean nothing worked. If you search threads from last winter you'll find several where I voiced my complaints and opinions... some even got me mildly chastised by forum moderators (certainly not completely undeserved). Members suggested several problems with my install... everything from too much draft to not enough draft, my wood wasn't seasoned... bla, bla, bla. I even went so far as to remove all the firebrick, install a raised grate, and drill holes to bring air in under it... no friggin' cigar‼ Yeah it helped a little, for one fuel load, until the small space under the grate filled with ash.

Now don't get me wrong, when the secondary burn was active that box made a lot of heat... a whole lot. But the secondary burn is active for only ¼ of the burn cycle (give or take), when it stopped the heat output went to miserable levels. And to make matters worse, the secondary burn just accelerates the the burn, causing the coaling stage to begin earlier... which is when there ain't enough heat. Yeah, I could add more wood every 1-1½ hours, which made more coals, until there wasn't any more room (when I'd open the door coals would actually fall out at times).

Some of the suggestions I got last year are similar to the solutions expressed in this thread... raking coals to the side, to the front, in the center, in a pile, adding splits in just the right places, adjusting air flow, bla, bla, bla. C'mon... it's a woodstove... I don't wanna' haf'ta mess 'round with it a dozen times during the burn cycle... I wanna' load it, slam the friggin' door and walk away for 6, 8 or 10 hours depending. I heat 100% with wood, 24/7, and I don't sit in the house all friggin' winter screwin' around with the firebox... heck, 5 days a week I'm at work and I'm rarely in the house on weekends. There's enough work involved makin' the firewood... burnin' it should be the easy part.

One last thing... I was using mine like a furnace.
I built a forced air plenum around it, installed it in the basement, and tied it into the existing ductwork. It was suggested, several times, that I was not using it as intended... that was why I was having problems.
WELL HERE'S AN UPDATE FELLA'S‼
I "un-did" all my modifications, installed new firebrick, and installed it in my shop this fall (small 2-stall garage)... chimney straight up and through the roof. It's now being used as "intended", as a stove, un-modified, with the recommended flue setup, 16 foot of pipe.
Well guess what?? There ain't no improvement in performance at all... in fact, it's even worse‼ I should'a cut that thing into scrap and built pistol targets with the steel. I'm goin' back to a barrel stove in the shop... something I can load, slam the door, walk away for 6 hours, and actually have it heat the shop.

Yeah, I agree "some people seem really defensive of EPA stoves." For some reason people are convinced that "fuel efficiency" is always more-better... that's the age we live in I guess. It reminds me of what my dad used to say when we were in the car business, (shakin' his head) "I used to sell cars by MPH, now I sell 'em by MPG." Just as fuel efficiency doesn't equal HP efficiency, it also doesn't equal heating efficiency. When heating, 50% fuel efficiency for 5 hours makes a lot... a lot... more heat per hour than 80% fuel efficiency over 10 hours‼ "Some people" can try and argue that, but the math don't friggin' lie‼ Like I've said a dozen times here, my old 4×4 pickup gets awesome fuel milage... if I drive it down the highway at 20 MPH‼
*

 

[haveawoody]

Same for me on Red oak over White oak.
Red oak isn't quite the btu output of white oak but in general I find it to be an easier wood to burn.
Not so picky for air settings and not so needy for a blistering hot fire to burn well.

I find white oak to be one of those woods that is better burnt in the day when you are around so you can fiddle with air settings as the wood wants.

 

[haveawoody]

Whitespider,

Without doubt a brickless barrel stove will put more heat into the shop than any brick insulated woodstove.
More heat in the shop though will effect the stack temperatures in proportion to what % heats what.
Hot shop and dirty chimney pipes, or warm shop and clean chimney pipes.

A barrel stove can be a mighty nice thing as long as your willing to have the occasional really hot fire to clean the chimney pipes or are willing to keep them clean yourself.

Always some tradeoff with one system wanting one thing and another part of it wanting something else.

 

[Chris-PA]

Probably not worth re-hashing Spidy. As I said, there are a lot of variations in equipment, flues, expectations and practices, as well as experiences with secondary combustion stoves. Some of us are very pleased with them.