Rebuild a pooched 461 or buy used 661?

[albravo2]

Hi All,

I’m not much of an internet forum guy but I’ve been to this site several times in the past year and now (unfortunately) have a question for the group. Fantastic site, by the way.

Reading a couple threads about the Stihl 461 as compared to the 661, I set my eye toward a 461 a few months back. I live in southwestern British Columbia and would use the saw to help out my 16 year old son in his firewood business and I’d also like to buy an Alaskan Mill for some milling.

As sometimes happens, one came up on the local Craigslist. It was at a pawn shop but based on the photos looked to be in fair shape. The grip was still perfect and the bar and plastics looked to be in good shape. After watching it for a few weeks I called and offered $450 (all prices in US$). They accepted so I drove a couple hours to pick it up, ran it briefly, and paid my money.

This is probably a good time to say I’ve always had pretty good luck on Craigslist. I’ve bought cars, motorcycles, lawnmowers, even an oven. I guess I was due for a schooling. About an hour after I dropped it off at my local saw shop for a look-over and tune up, they called and said the crank bearing had given up, toasting the bottom end and probably the top end. I asked for a quote to rebuild it and they came back today and said it will probably cost about $800 to rebuild it.

When I went down to pick up the pieces, he mentioned they just took a 661 in on trade and will be selling it next week. Tested, tuned for around $600.

So, my question to the experts: should I try and rebuild the 461 myself or chalk that up to a lesson learned and just buy the 661? Or maybe hold out for another 461 since I’ll have a good parts machine.

I don’t have any small engine rebuild experience but I am pretty handy. I have time and a decent shop.

I really appreciate any insights.

 

[northmanlogging]

Sounds like the saw shop is pulling yer leg...

if the piston and cylinder are not scarred, run em

if and I mean if by some magical coincidence the bearings have gone and not the piston/cylinder (which I doubt very much) they are fairly cheap and easy to install yourself, the seals can be a pain but the bearings are more or less a slip fit.

But since it ran at the shop and ran when you dropped it off, I'm guessing that is was running pretty good before they tore it apart. It's been my experience that once a piston and cylinder go, there isn't much in the way of wanting to run after that.

All told with new top end and lower bearings it shouldn't be much more then $400 for parts, and around 2 hours to put it back together again.

But if you still wan't to be rid of it and go for the 661, I'd take it off your hands for ya, the 661 would be a better slabbing saw, more oil to the chain, and it would self adjust air fuel, Slabbing is hard on any saw, and the 461's run a little hot anyway... just rebuilt my 066 that a friend had used to slab some maple.... with a dull chain...

 

[albravo2]

"All told with new top end and lower bearings it shouldn't be much more then $400 for parts, and around 2 hours to put it back together again."

That is sort of what I was hoping to hear. Thanks. I'll look around the forum for a recommended parts supplier for Stihl parts.

At this point I'm still trusting of the shop. They have always been fair with me in the past. But between labour and the lousy Canadian dollar I think anything parts-intensive is hard for them to recommend.

 

[bitzer]

Take the saw apart. Then you'll know in about 15 minutes.

 

[northmanlogging]

pull the exhaust off, turn it over until you can see the piston, if its tatered it will be obvious,

as far as parts, trust the stihl parts, anything else is a bit of a gamble, mostly made in china junk. Or traipse on down across the border and visit any of a dozen stihl shops between Blain and Everett (ever rot), Sedro Woolly has a very nice one... though its large and very dangerous to bring any extra money...

 

[Shagbark]

What is wrong with you? The answer is both. 661 to use while you gather parts and rebuild the 461.

 

[Grey]

That was what I was thinkin'

 

[albravo2]

Take the saw apart. Then you'll know in about 15 minutes.

I was hoping to delay displaying my ignorance longer than two posts, but the head is off and the piston is removed from the connecting rod (disassembled by the shop to put together a detailed quote) but I can't tell what is broken and what is usable.
- the piston is intact, with no obvious damage save for some carbon on the top.
- the cylinder has one 1" long score approx the thickness of a thin hair directly under the exhaust port.
- some carbon buildup on the top of the cylinder
- the connecting rod has some play in it side to side where it is attached to the crank. Is this normal or is this where the bearing gave away? I imagine at 7000 rpm there isn't a lot of room for slop.
- the crank spins easily within the crank case, no signs of damage. To be honest, I can't tell which bearing failed and what the problem is.

Would pictures help?

I start with the bottom end, can I just do the top end later if I'm not satisfied with the performance?

What is wrong with you? The answer is both. 661 to use while you gather parts and rebuild the 461.

Again, was hoping to hide my ignorance a little longer but you make an obvious point. Especially if the task of rebuilding the 461 exceeds my ham-fisted efforts of repair.

 

[albravo2]

Sorry guys, just realized I should have put this in the Chainsaw section. I didn't look far enough.

Any way to move it or will a mod do so?

 

[madhatte]

I got you

 

[Grey]

If you "rebuild" the 461, consider rebuilding the oiler to high-output. Just a thought.(?)

 

[Mwmx54]

I am working on a 461 right now. Needs a new cylinder piston and starter assembly. Unfortunately there is not much available for these particular saws, no meteor or tecomec cylinder kits, which are the only brand I'd use, just oem($280) or a couple China garbage kits. And the starter is also very expensive, and no A/M kits there either. You can always part out the 461. I'd take the cylinder off your hands no matter the condition, I gots a hookup for replating, and the starter cover.
Or even the whole damn saw
Anyhow, if your not able to do the labor yourself, which even if you've never turned a wrench in your life, you could probably still do, with the help from the members on this site, I'd say part it out, or sell it whole. To me. Haha.
Otherwise I think labor is gonna kill the deal for you. That 661 has a very good price tag. IMO

 

[northmanlogging]

get a picture of this "scratch" in the cylinder, if its really small, its called normal wear.

Seriously if the damn thing was running before you brought it in, its going to be fine.

There is usually some slop in the connecting rod, side to side anyway, and it will wiggle back and forth some, just shouldn't be any grinding or up and down slop.

As for the crank bearings same thing goes, shouldn't be any side to side slop or grinding, but a little back and forth is ok

The hardest thing you have to deal with on reassembly is getting the lock ring clip deal back into the cylinder correctly, throw a little lube on the bearing before assembly, (its probably wrong but I use plain ole 10w30) just enough to keep them wet until the two smoke oil gets in there, and smear a little on the cylinder and piston ring as well.

Then its just a matter of putting all the bolts back in the right place and getting the intake boot to line up.

Also why the Hel did they feel the need to disassemble a running saw to get a quote? About the only thing they should have needed to do was pull the exhaust and filter for a vacuum check... kinda hard to test the vacuum without a cylinder attached... which by the way is how they test the crank seals.

 

[albravo2]

Thanks northman, I'm going to rebuild it.

The shop identified the bearing and said they needed to remove the cylinder to look inside to assess how much damage the fragmented bearing did on the way out.

He also said I could re-use the piston and cylinder but that would only take a couple hundred bucks off the quote.

How do you like the Bellingham Stihl dealer on James St? I can drop the wife at Trader Joe's and have an easy hour at the shop. Or would you suggest going straight to Sedro Woolley? I'll take the pieces in and get a second opinion.

 

[Mwmx54]

Do some research on cleaning up transfer from the cylinder, it's pretty easy to do, and it should take off about 280$ unless they were giving you a Good deal on the cylinder and piston, or my dealer is trying to rip me off, hmmm. Make sure they do a vacuum and pressure test after reassembly. And break it in rich.
All in all, if you can get the job done for around 500 you'll have a good solid saw at a decent price. And you'll know what went into it. If for some reason you do choose not to use the cylinder, which I have rarely seen one that couldn't be cleaned up with a little elbow grease, let me know. I'll buy it.

 

[SteveSS]

When I went down to pick up the pieces, he mentioned they just took a 661 in on trade and will be selling it next week. Tested, tuned for around $600.

Pictures of the pieces would help a lot towards steering advice.

 

[blsnelling]

Isn't the 461 recoil the same as a 460?

 

[Mwmx54]

I don't think so, my research(google images) shows some differences, aside from slight design differences, the upper right bolt hole looks lower on the 460. If anyone knows for sure please let me know though. It seems not much is interchangeable on the 461 with any other saws. I got excited when came up on the block on the bay and didn't do any research to check on availability of parts. Live an learn I guess. It'll sit til the right deals pop up.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

You're very lucky the bad bearing was caught before it could destroy the saw.
If a Stihl shop said the cylinder and piston is still useable then I'd fully trust that opinion since you rarely hear that from a Stihl shop.
I'd buy the 661 and fix this over time. If in fact it is the big end bearing and not the case bearings then you're looking at near $400 just for a new crankshaft.

 

[LowVolt]

We need pics!!!!