Firewood vending

[woodshax]

VF,
Thanks, I really value the feedback and opinions...Nothing is ever a solution for everyone and if something works for you...stick with it.

We have found a huge untapped market just in our local area But I may have explained it wrong or not given the correct metrics. A 31 door machine is $8900 and a 47 door machine is 12.7K.... retail, buying just one. And of course since we build them....my investment is obviously less than 75K as would someone who bought 8 machines. But even if it did, current figures show that the average machine will gross about $10,000 a year with a net of $6600.... (in camp grounds that average 68 camp sites per...as we expand into larger facilities this will increase, as we have found that a reliable expectation is about $13.30 per camp site w/fire ring per month). considering other vending opportunities the return on investment is pretty high.... In this area, the machines appeal to those in the tree trimming, landscaping business who get paid to take down trees and then they split it and save it for oct, nov, dec, and sell it for $300 to 400 a cord...but they have to touch it many times to get the money....Camp sales are all year long here and the sales price is 3 to 4 times higher.

Also I don't sell wood for $20 a cuft. So most bundles around my area sell outside gas stations for $5 for .75cuft....but when measured the average about.65 and the bigger the logs in the bundle the less cuft...so even at best the gas stations are selling for $6.66 to 7.70 per cuft. The biggest seller of wood at all the local supermarkets is Big John's and the supermarkets sell their oak, pecan, hickory and mesquite for about $12.49 for a 2 cuft bag....but you can't fit 2 cuft of wood in a 2cuft bag..... I have taken their product and put it in my bags to test and it is the same within .1cuft (they cut their 12" and I cut mine 18") so I sell the same thing on a camp site for $11.75 plus tax...so no reason to put down your beer and drive off the park and waste your gas and vacation time looking for wood....also....instead of loading up your vehicle with wood and driving it to the camp ground...you can use that extra space for more beer.

The machines take no cash, so no fear of someone trying to break into it....credit card and debit card

I take 128 Cuft of wood and then see how many bags it fills

100 2cuft bags (as full as we can get them) per cord
190 1 cuft bags per cord

I don't sell them by the cuft....I sell them as "big bag" or "little bag" so no false advertising...we also sell charcoal, cases of water, small covered grills (during burn bans) and camp stove propane bottles.

Additionally, the park rangers are the biggest supporters because those who already sell firewood...hate it. They buy by the pallet and have to break it down, store, move it and account for the cash whether by honor box or cash sales in the office.....when they could be doing something else. Now they do nothing and their park gets a 10% check every month and no complaints by campers...dry wood (mostly) available all the time

 

[Chris(Glen)]

Some more detailed pictures of the system and video possibly may give us a chance to give you more feedback. I've been debating this idea for a long time of building or purchasing something like this but with that large a price tag it would be very hard to justify vs just getting someone to supply a cage system and a lock & key to the front desk people.

 

[Philbert]

Philbert

 

[stltreedr]

Those things look amazing! Sounds like you've got the Texas State Park gig locked up for the time being... Firewood bundles in Missouri State Parks go for $4 each... That would be 2,225 bundles to pay back the machine.. Or about 5 years of continuously filling them back up. Here at home, the camp ground hosts just open up a locked cage and sell it to the people. Slave labor is usually cheaper than technology.

 

[woodshax]

amazon and fedex have very similar self service designs and there are others as well...patenting has to do with how it works not what it does. As for $4 a bundle...Like I have said, all bundles are not created equal....it seems like the .75 cuft bundle is what everyone measures cost/price on.....I have taken a lot of different ".75 cuft" bundles and never found one that was...most range between .5 and .65 mine are 1.3 cuft in mesh bags. So, they are likely selling for $7 to 8 a Cuft and I am at $9. When I first approached a state park for possible sales there I talked with the park sup. and he said they were looking at getting a supplier but had not finalized it....he said all sales at his park went through the Friends Group.....we met with them and came up with an easy contract and went to work. The Sup started bragging to the other parks about his wood machine with 24 hr sales...and we got some more interest....but the State Parks contracting officer did not think it was a value added because a lot of parks bought wood by the pallet at $2.65 a bundle and sold it for anywhere between 5 and 5.60 a bundle. But once the Park Sups started complaining about how much work it was...they had to get it, stack it, sell it, account for sales...which is very hard when they have an "honor box" because of the chain of custody of cash and proving it was not paid for vice the Ranger taking a bit for his troubles.....In the end, they figured they were doing a little better that breaking even and could spend their time doing more productive things. So the contracting officer came around and now is one of our biggest champions....Park staff has no responsibility for the wood, they expend no time and get 10% of gross sales...Campers get 24 hr wood sales and the wood is a lot dryer...no one complains and the profit margin for us is pretty good......

 

[Philbert]

I don't understand patents and such. from your description and photos, it sounds like a good, practical system for this application.

Philbert

 

[Wood Doctor]

Here's another indication that firewood is more valuable than most people think it is. I work with a tree trimmer and removal company to collect the larger branches and trunks that they cannot shred with their equipment. I do this for no cost. The foreman called me at 11 am last week to let me know that just under a truckload of oak was piled outside in a customer's yard near the street. I was out of town and could not get to the site until 6 am, the next morning. He left the site at 3 pm.

I got there and all of it was gone. Somebody late that afternoon right after he and his crew had left or at night picked it all up and hauled it away. The foreman told me he had cut the logs into 16" to 18" lengths and that made it even more desirable. But, all of the rounds would have required splitting. The owner of the property was amazed and said he never heard or saw a thing.

 

[TFPace]

I love your idea.

We own/operate a campground and firewood is a pain the butt. We have always operated our firewood system on the honor system and sadly it seems that more and more people are ripping us off.
The C-stores in our area sell the crap out of firewood bundles too.

 

[Tom's Tree Service]

Yes, we have 2 patents on it and the 4 module machine would retail for $8900 plus shipping but we are about 6 months away from outside sales so that I can fill the need for Texas parks

I want to buy one.... Please call Greg at 308 390 6525

 

[woodshax]

I want to buy one.... Please call Greg at 308 390 6525

Will do, out of the office but will have someone give you a call

 

[woodshax]

So I finally got around to getting videos of the machine....you can cut and paste the youtube link to see the basic operation. It is a simple machine and we will upload videos of the owners screen operations to show how to restock, change prices and find machine faults....it is programmed so if you accidentally close the door within the first 15 seconds the door will open back up and if the door is stuck or someone is leaning on it, it will try to open 3 times and then go to the next unvended door and open that. Some of our State parks are now in burn bans so we replace the firewood with charcoal, charcoal and propane grills, cases of water...whatever the park personnel say the campers ask about the most.

Let me know what you think

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Here's another indication that firewood is more valuable than most people think it is. I work with a tree trimmer and removal company to collect the larger branches and trunks that they cannot shred with their equipment. I do this for no cost. The foreman called me at 11 am last week to let me know that just under a truckload of oak was piled outside in a customer's yard near the street. I was out of town and could not get to the site until 6 am, the next morning. He left the site at 3 pm.

I got there and all of it was gone. Somebody late that afternoon right after he and his crew had left or at night picked it all up and hauled it away. The foreman told me he had cut the logs into 16" to 18" lengths and that made it even more desirable. But, all of the rounds would have required splitting. The owner of the property was amazed and said he never heard or saw a thing.

We had almost 20 cords of logs stolen overnight 2 years ago. People were still there cutting and loading trucks as we pulled up with the log truck.
"Well the logs were just laying there"

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

I love your idea.

We own/operate a campground and firewood is a pain the butt. We have always operated our firewood system on the honor system and sadly it seems that more and more people are ripping us off.
The C-stores in our area sell the crap out of firewood bundles too.

Honor system here, often end up with more money than bundles sold. So far been fine.

The bin vendor is neat, but at ~10k, I'd have to have over 6500 bundles stolen to be at a break even.
I suppose the cool factor of the machine might drum up some business, hard to say.
I can see at a public location like a campground where the honor system might not work so well.

I just watched the video... curious, I sell 5 bundles for $20 (and sell quite a bit like that). Would it just open 5 doors? The bundles are about 10x12x16. (Generous cubic foot)

 

[woodshax]

Honor system here, often end up with more money than bundles sold. So far been fine.

The bin vendor is neat, but at ~10k, I'd have to have over 6500 bundles stolen to be at a break even.
I suppose the cool factor of the machine might drum up some business, hard to say.
I can see at a public location like a campground where the honor system might not work so well.

I just watched the video... curious, I sell 5 bundles for $20 (and sell quite a bit like that). Would it just open 5 doors? The bundles are about 10x12x16. (Generous cubic foot)

Good morning VF, you and I are operating under a different business model. While your volume/price points don't work for me, my machine would not work for you. But to answer the question( and the machine is below 9k)

the easy fix for your generous cuft bundles are to split them up with half in one compartment and half in the other and either charge a little more than half for each transaction....or with a few more lines of code...two doors would open if they selected that option.

The best locations for these machines are at State and National parks....While I can only speak for Texas, (the Parks we are in and those parks on the waiting list) The ranger's hate "the honor boxes" and anything to do with cash because every morning, 2 Rangers have to go to the box and count the cash together and then re-verify....and then it goes inside and it is counted again.

If the Rangers buy wood bundles by the pallet then they must move, stack, restock etc.... and there are many other things they could be doing....so considering what they pay for the wood and the man hours required to maintain and sell the pile, it was just not worth it.

With me, they do nothing except accept a check every month for a % of the gross

When we get a contract with a park, it stipulates that I am the only authorized wood, charcoal, etc vendor on the Park

We let the campers know that a portion of the profits go directly back to the park

That the wood is either locally sourced or Kiln dried to reduce chances of spreading invasive species (yes I know Kiln dried is different from heat treated....I follow the same standards but have not met documentation and equipment standards for the USDA)

And just for a little extra kick in a very patriotic state that we are a Service Disabled Veteran owned and operated small business

Couple that with the fact that Campers hate to drive off site to buy things....especially at night and many parks are 10-15 miles from a store there is an added convenience.

This allows us to charge a premium for our wood (Although still in line with most established businesses in our area, so no price gouging) So I can sell less wood for a higher profit margin. So for this scenario, the machine has a very high ROI.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

I figured in the ~10k area with the shipping. I think in a previous post you said it was $8900 for the machine.

I understand how it works out for you. I'm just giving input as an "average" firewood producer that sells bundles more or less as a "side job". Main job is bulk firewood. The 5 for $20 works great. Customers are happy about the deal they get, I often "upsell", where if they are $5 each, might only buy 2 or 3. Even if I sold a whole cord worth of bundles at what amounts to $4 each, that's still a $400 cord of wood.

I am curious, does the computer system tie into a merchant account or does it need a completely separate one? Like if I pay $30 a month through a company to have a credit card machine in the shop, would I have to pay another $30/month for the vending machine as well?

I was looking into just having a stand setup with just the credit card part of the vending machine. I'd still be on the honor system, but folks would be able to pay with debit/credit. Right now I just do check and cash in a slotted box.

 

[woodshax]

I figured in the ~10k area with the shipping. I think in a previous post you said it was $8900 for the machine.

I understand how it works out for you. I'm just giving input as an "average" firewood producer that sells bundles more or less as a "side job". Main job is bulk firewood. The 5 for $20 works great. Customers are happy about the deal they get, I often "upsell", where if they are $5 each, might only buy 2 or 3. Even if I sold a whole cord worth of bundles at what amounts to $4 each, that's still a $400 cord of wood.

I am curious, does the computer system tie into a merchant account or does it need a completely separate one? Like if I pay $30 a month through a company to have a credit card machine in the shop, would I have to pay another $30/month for the vending machine as well?

I was looking into just having a stand setup with just the credit card part of the vending machine. I'd still be on the honor system, but folks would be able to pay with debit/credit. Right now I just do check and cash in a slotted box.

the System computer talks with the telemetry system....It is only sending and receiving commands (preauth, authorize, decline, sale complete etc) and all the credit card info is transmitted securely through their telemetry system. So it works wherever there is a cell signal but requires no other support...I pay less than $8 a month for the service and swipe charges are below 3%. The $8 includes all cell charges and back office charts and sales data so I have real time knowledge of sales and do not have to go out to fill up until I hit my safety level.

As for making your own out of old vending machines it would work but finding one cheap enough with all the right circuit boards intact might be difficult. I am making an honor box replacement prototype for the Parks system now. So they do not have to have after hours drop boxes for cash...yours would be even simpler....metal box (waterproof)...3 or 4 buttons (waterproof) and the card reader mounted to the box and telemeter... small computer, a little bit of code and a sign that says push button A for 1 cuft, B for 2, C for 3 and so on..... and swipe your card....card reader will say approved or not for the selected price and then you can have the credit card reader programmed to read...."now go pick up your wood and thank you for your purchase".


and as for the part time wood seller....if they live near a good camping park and get on there with a machine and sole right to sell wood.....they can sell less wood for more money and only have to refill as needed...so less work and if he makes a minimum of an extra $175 a week...the machine pays for itself in the first year.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

If you get a honor system payment box setup let me know what it costs, I may be interested. Only thing I've found that is somewhat close is a car wash setup and I was never able to get anyone from those vendors to answer the phone or call me back.

 

[woodshax]

If you get a honor system payment box setup let me know what it costs, I may be interested. Only thing I've found that is somewhat close is a car wash setup and I was never able to get anyone from those vendors to answer the phone or call me back.

Will do, It is amazing that you call and email these businesses and have to beg to buy their product or they ignore you all together....It was frustrating when we first got started.

 

[woodshax]

A little better video of the vending machine and some diagnostics. We have a videographer coming to make us a better one for our website. I owe 10 more machines to local state parks and then we will be ready to sell them

 

[mijdirtyjeep]

Your machines are very nice!!

Question. Do you find that heading out and filling the machine is a pain or are the parks they are at small enough to just fill it up before the weekend and good to go?

I looked into getting a couple of the vending machines for my campgrounds in the past, but have the problem of them not holding enough wood. Two of my campgrounds average between 180-200/bundles each per weekend alone and I just did not want to make multiple trips every weekend.