Is ethanol really that bad?

[bmwpowere36m3]

Ethanol is a cheaper and cleaner octane booster, but it lowers the energy content of fuel... subsides aside.

 

[Full Chisel]

I guarantee ethanol ain't saving you anything at the pump...

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

True... only costs me in grief

 

[HuskStihl]

For many, ethanol is a political issue. No rational discourse is possible. If I had eFree, I'd use it. I don't, so in use e10, and have had zero problems.

 

[7sleeper]

No, it's in there because it's a huge moneymaking scam forced upon the public in the name of helping the environment, which is a lie for multiple reasons.

Funny how everyone is always beating on the subsided corn industry, while the fuel industry is recieving even more money...

Guess what, a lot of equipment (i.e. landscaping outdoor power equipment) nowadays have carbs that are completely non-adjustable because of the fascist EPA. And when I say non-adjustable, there are no hidden carb adjustments to defeat, there is nothing you can pry open or grind out to reveal anything.

And again I donot see EPA at fault for one second! If the manufacturers cannot or donot want to research in new technology to cope with the new emision standards, then they deserve to go under! It isn't like moday morning the new emmision standard is released and nobody knew anything about it! And yes research is expensive but I am sure tax deductible...

It's absorbing water molecules right out of the atmosphere the moment you are pumping it into a container. The point is, there's no benefit to having something added to gas that has an undesirable chemical property that non-ethanol gas does not have.

Obviously you are again ignoring reality. When you pump fuel into an empty container, you drive out all the air. Contact time with the air is two minutes at most and in this time only limited to the surface area. As I mentioned above and clearly you neglected, in ambient temperatures the moisture content of the air is around a few drops per square cubic yard. So you are free to estimate how much moisture your fuel is coming into contact over refueling time. Further the lower the temperature the LESS moisture we have in the air. So below freezing temperatures there is about "zero" moisture in the air.

You didn't read my post thoroughly and instead reacted in a knee-jerk fashion:

If you think 2% of a real, quality synthetic 2 cycle oil (such as Mobil 1 Racing 2T) will result in less carbon buildup and more power than 32:1 or 25:1, you are sadly mistaken, and that's not my opinion, it's a fact.

"Manufacturers" "recommendations" are not "their" recommendations--they're saying that only because of the EPA. Those low amounts of oil like 50:1 are based around being able to pass EMISSIONS. Most manufacturers would FAIL EPA requirements if they fueled their engines with 32:1, 25:1, or 20:1 ratios. You buy a Husqvarna chainsaw in America, and it will say "50:1", you go and buy that exact same model chainsaw in Australia, and it will say "25:1", because Oz doesn't have to cowtow to the EPA like we do here. Oh and Aussie Husky saws also say that you void your warranty if you use any less oil than 25:1.

Carbon buildup has much more to do with carb settings than the amount of oil included.

What is funny is that in german speaking countries almost all forest companies are required by law to use premix fuel. Over here premix comes exclusively in 1:50 full synthetic, irrespective of brand. Some manufacturers, as has been shown by KWF testing even have only 1.8% oil and 0.2% additives = 2% "two stroke oil". Have there been any problems with burnt up saws? Since I am equally active in the german comunity, you can only trust me on this one since I presume you have no interest in reading through years of german threads. The answer is NO! The pro's use their saws for 2-4 years just as before and then buy new. So you can dump all the oil in the world into your fuel and believe that it is going to do you some good.
And obviously you seem to have etremely good connections to the industry that you know that the industry is only saying what EPA wants to hear...
And since you mention Husqvarna Australia and 25:1, I actually checked a few of their manuals (f.e.550) and they quote clearly there:
"Mixing ratio
1:50 (2%) with HUSQVARNA two-stroke oil.
1:33 (3%) with oils class JASO FB or ISO EGB formulated
for air-cooled, two-stroke engines."

So I assumed you might be mistaken and meant Stihl and found this on the homepage:
"Need to mix fuel for your STIHL 2-Stroke engine?
You’ll need STIHL 2 Stroke oil, an empty and clean fuel can & fresh unleaded fuel from a reputable petrol station.
Mix at 50:1 (20mls oil per 1 litre fuel) when you’re using STIHL 2-Stroke oil.


Using a different brand of 2-Stroke oil?
You’ll need to mix at 25:1 (40mls oil per 1 litre fuel)
Petrol has limited shelf life (as low as 30 days), so always mix with fresh regular unleaded, purchased from a reputable large volume fuel supplier.


Using a fuel stabiliser
To prolong the life of your 2 Stroke fuel mix you can add STIHL fuel stabiliser to extend the fuel’s shelf life up to 12 months.
15ml of STIHL fuel stabiliser will treat 5 litres of fuel."
So again I am sorry to say but you are obviously neglecting quite a few facts!

You'd really love to see it eh? Here you go:
15% ethanol destroys 2 cycle.... good read.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/15-ethanol-destroys-2-cycle-good-read.197321/
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/52909.pdf

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/30/aaa-e15-gas-harm-cars/1735793/
AAA warns E15 gasoline could cause car damage

^ I guess the above are all "paranoid!" because you said so, obviously you're more of an authority.

Have you really read the thread you link to above? Have you read the comments and watched the video linked from @Boleclimber? Did you read the comments on the youtube page from the owner of the saw? Just so you don't accidently overlook it I will quote it.
"Homelite XL12 chainsaw, cold start and warmup on E85 Ethanol.

Saw has been running E85 for a little over 2 years now, this is it's 2nd winter, unmodified, minus quick carb mixture adjustments. Temp was 35f, sat for about a month. Takes some pulling to start on E85 in cold weather, but it always starts! Starts on about 3 pulls in the summer.

I love this saw! I don't know the exact year though, I think it's a mid 70's. I've got another one just like it that runs but needs some maintenance. It was given to me for parts, but I have to restore it "


Further the pdf you linked contains these important sentence.
It should be noted that the settings for the carburetors on both of the 9.9HP test engines were set and sealed at the carburetor manufacturer.

The Verado engines had an open loop electronic fuel injection system with no user adjustment possible.

The 2.5L 200HP EFI engine had an open loop electronic fuel injection system with no user adjustment possible.

So does anyone really want to run equiment on fuel or in altitudes that are not in the equipments working range? I find that actually quite abusive and am not suprised about the results. If the carb had been adjusted or the EFI reprogrammed to the correct fuel injection regin needed, that would have been a scientific durability test.

And last I donot comment what newspapers have to say.

7

 

[CoreyB]

If all I had was ethanol available in would run it when I am busiest and get some vp or true fuel and run a tank of that before I leave it sit for very long. Like even a week.

 

[Ilmater]

Mechanics see ethanol damaging small engines
Fuel blend, already implicated in high food prices, linked to rise in repairs

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/25936782/...mechanics-see-ethanol-damaging-small-engines/

Ethanol and Two-Stroke Cycle Engines
Impacts of an Alternative Fuel in Small Engines
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/ethano...pacts-of-an-alternative-fuel-in-small-engines

AMA: EPA Acknowledges Ethanol Damages Engines
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/04/19/ama-epa-acknowledges-ethanol-damages-engines/

Ethanol causing hidden damage to small engines
http://www.kait8.com/story/22932373/ethanol-causing-hidden-damage-to-small-engines

Gas with ethanol can make small engines fail
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm

Ten Reasons To Care That E15 Ethanol Is On The Way To Your Gas Station
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...-on-the-way-to-your-gas-station/#39fcb4396ac0

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...n-the-way-to-your-gas-station/2/#17b01d487ed5

E10 Alcohol Fuel Blends Can Cause Damage to Engines
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

E10 Fuel is NOT Safe For Marine Engines
http://www.fuel-testers.com/e10_gas_not_safe_for_marine_engine.html

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Trolls be trolling...

 

[Little Al]

So as per 7 sleeper's post If you wanted to ( god & other deity's forbid ) Run your Husky on Stihl ultra oil you would have to mix at 3% as the jaso rating is ONLY FB

 

[roncoinc]

I have about 200 carb kit's in stock.
buy fuel line in 50 ft spools.
almost all problems i get now are fuel related.
it dies leaving a yucky coating when it goes bad.
i have seen E10 go bad in a month.
tried marine stabil and startron,had a container of startron treated fuel go bad once.
buy e10 fresh and dont let equipment or fuel set to long and you can go a long time without problems.
I use airplane fuel now,,no problems.

 

[Bwildered]

I have about 200 carb kit's in stock.
buy fuel line in 50 ft spools.
almost all problems i get now are fuel related.
it dies leaving a yucky coating when it goes bad.
i have seen E10 go bad in a month.
tried marine stabil and startron,had a container of startron treated fuel go bad once.
buy e10 fresh and dont let equipment or fuel set to long and you can go a long time without problems.
I use airplane fuel now,,no problems.

Only in America it seems! You lucky b*stards!
Slashinski

 

[Whiskers]

I run at least 3 gallons of e10 mixed 50:1 with either Stihl orange or silver bottle in my ope every week. Seems to work just fine, but if in know it's going to be sitting I get non e.

Edit: O P E is a censored word, but feel free to use whatever you come up with for those little stars.

 

[Chris-PA]

Funny how everyone is always beating on the subsided corn industry, while the fuel industry is recieving even more money...

The worst problem with ethanol for fuel is that it takes more energy from oil than it returns, so it is just a waste of fuel.

 

[HuskStihl]

The worst problem with ethanol for fuel is that it takes more energy from oil than it returns, so it is just a waste of fuel.

The best thing about ethanol (e85) is if you have a forced induction engine, you can upgrade u'r injectors, increase the boost, and advance the timing way past the point where 93 will pre-ignite. 100 octane for 1.30 a gallon. If u'r into that kinda thing.

 

[heyduke]

I recently bought a shiny leaf blower. Put a carb kit in it ran fine for 10 seconds then started running rough. I had ordered some cosmetic parts for it and called my dealer to cancel. Tried again about 20 mins later and the thing ran perfect. Called back to uncancel order and the guy told me the following. When it is hot and humid out the ethanol evaporates and leaves a jelly like substance in the carb. Any truth to this? He said use Stabil, does that stuff actually work?

e10 is wonderful! it's made me good money for the last ten years. i've got a pair of stihl ms250's in the shop as i write. both needed new carbs. same old story, if you use your saw every day, it doesn't matter. if you use you saws for cutting firewood in the fall and they spend the rest of the year on the shelf, you will likely see damage to fuel lines, primer bulbs and some carbs. often rebuilding carbs, especially new ones, doesn't help. i just did a poulan 2200. the fuel line had white residue inside and had become brittle and broke. guys who claim e10 is harmless probably never ran real gas and think that lining up down at the stihl dealer every spring is just part of the routine.

 

[heyduke]

The best thing about ethanol (e85) is if you have a forced induction engine, you can upgrade u'r injectors, increase the boost, and advance the timing way past the point where 93 will pre-ignite. 100 octane for 1.30 a gallon. If u'r into that kinda thing.

yeah, but a gallon only gets you half as far.

 

[Chris-PA]

e10 is wonderful! it's made me good money for the last ten years. i've got a pair of stihl ms250's in the shop as i write. both needed new carbs. same old story, if you use your saw every day, it doesn't matter. if you use you saws for cutting firewood in the fall and they spend the rest of the year on the shelf, you will likely see damage to fuel lines, primer bulbs and some carbs. often rebuilding carbs, especially new ones, doesn't help. i just did a poulan 2200. the fuel line had white residue inside and had become brittle and broke. guys who claim e10 is harmless probably never ran real gas and think that lining up down at the stihl dealer every spring is just part of the routine.

And yet I had a saw that has been sitting for months with E10 in it, and yesterday I ran it and it was misbehaving - I pulled the carb apart and it is spotless inside. Fuel lines are great too. I have not finished diagnosing it, but believe the problem is the ignition.

I'd bet a good beer that white deposit is from incorrect plastic fuel containers, as I've seen it before. It's really hard to get off.

 

[heyduke]

And yet I had a saw that has been sitting for months with E10 in it, and yesterday I ran it and it was misbehaving - I pulled the carb apart and it is spotless inside. Fuel lines are great too. I have not finished diagnosing it, but believe the problem is the ignition.

I'd bet a good beer that white deposit is from incorrect plastic fuel containers, as I've seen it before. It's really hard to get off.

yes, it could be ignition problems but my money would be on the carb. try swapping it with a known good carb. the two stihls on my bench now are low-hour ms250's. the carbs looked great inside and out but they didn't run until i installed new ones, $30 each from my stihl dealer. he doesn't even stock rebuild kits any more. fuel and impluse lines were fine. they must be using different resins now. i have seen fuel lines melt into a wad of gum at the bottom of the tank with e10.

i didn't bother to reuse the fuel line from the poulan 2200. it had become brittle and cracked at the barb, found it with my nose. replaced with tygon. i use no-spill-jills for my mix, no problems yet but i go thru 15 gallons fairly quickly. my main complaint with plastic containers is that you have to protect them from saw chain when both are riding in the truck.

 

[Chris-PA]

yes, it could be ignition problems but my money would be on the carb. try swapping it with a known good carb.

We'll see - I need to go start the thing but it's so damn hot and humid out it's hard to get motivated. Carbs are not a mystery to me - if it's bad I'll fix it, as this particular WT-750 is not common. I've got a couple of spares but don't want to use them.

I clamped the fuel line in the tank and used the purge bulb to test the lines - it held a vacuum and did not expand until I opened the fuel line again, so nothing is leaking in the fuel system.

Other than the check valve there isn't much that E10 can do to it, as the diaphragms are OK and there are no deposits or corrosion of any kind.

EDIT: It has a major air leak, I'll have to find it. It likely has nothing to do with the fuel system.

 

[heyduke]

We'll see - I need to go start the thing but it's so damn hot and humid out it's hard to get motivated. Carbs are not a mystery to me - if it's bad I'll fix it, as this particular WT-750 is not common. I've got a couple of spares but don't want to use them.

I clamped the fuel line in the tank and used the purge bulb to test the lines - it held a vacuum and did not expand until I opened the fuel line again, so nothing is leaking in the fuel system.

Other than the check valve there isn't much that E10 can do to it, as the diaphragms are OK and there are no deposits or corrosion of any kind.

EDIT: It has a major air leak, I'll have to find it. It likely has nothing to do with the fuel system.

i'm finding old walbros to be more robust than new zamas. good luck finding the leak.