Advice needed on wood furnace chimney installation

[wrx-snowdrift]

I moved into an old farmhouse in June and I've been trying figure out how to add a wood furnace. Right now the house has electric forced air heat and my electric bill is $300+ and it has been that cold yet. FYI this is a two story house with the furnace in the basement. After a lot of research I decided on a Vapor-Fire 100 as an add on to the electric furnace. Before moving any further I figured I'd better have the chimney inspected and make sure my plan would work. I found a somewhat local company that inspects, repairs and builds chimneys. He told me that the clay tile liner of the chimney was shot and I would need to remove the tile and put in a steel double walled liner at the cost of $5,000. He also said a temporary fix would be to leave the tile and just put in a steel pipe but that would still cost $2,000 and he said that would just be a "band aid" and not the right way to do it. Thoughts??

He also said that we were 1 cinderblock too short on the basement wall to go out the sidewall with a chimney pipe. After thinking about this for awhile I started to wonder why I can't go out the side. If there isn't enough room from the exterior ground level to the sill plate/floor joists couldn't a guy dig a small egress to run a chimney out the wall of the basement? or could it go up through the main floor and then out the side. It doesn't seem like it should be this hard.

 

[lindnova]

A warm chimney in the center of the house will draft better than one outside; I would keep it inside.

I thought you could put a flex steel line inside the existing chimney - that must be the "temp" fix. Others here have done that - I have no experience.

IMHO peace of mind and not burning the house down always trumps saving a few bucks for me. Sounds like the company you are talking to wants to do it right and not skimp.

 

[Marshy]

Get a second opinion. Your cheapest solution will likely be to line the existing chimney with an insulated stainless liner. The question is; how large of a chimney pipe does your appliance require and what size is your existing chimney? If you install a liner I N the chimney you need 1) it to be the proper size as required by the stove manufacture, and 2) you have enough room in the chimney to accommodate the liner and insulation.

IMO The integrity of the clay liner does not matter much because with a liner you are not relying on it to provide a fire rated barrier, that's the purpose of the stainless liner. A mason might argue that the liner provides structural integrity to the chimney though. The insulated liner will draft significantly better than and plain masonry chimney period so don't worry that it is exposed on the exterior of the house. One thing you want to make sure of is that the chimney is structurally sound before you go putting the liner in it. Start calling your local chimney sweep guys and asked if they install liners in masonry chimney and if they do free quotes.

 

[TimberWolf530]

How high is your chimney? You can get insulated stainless kits starting at about $400 +, depending on length. You won't need to take the tile out unless it is in danger of falling and damaging something below, and double wall is unneccessary if your're leaving it in place. I put it in myself in about an hour by myself. You just need to have basic handy man skills to do it yourself.

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

Thank you for your replies everyone. The Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 requires a 6" Class A chimney according to the spec sheet. My chimney is 28' tall. Made of 16"x16" block with 8" tile. The inspector said there was tile missing in quite a few spots. I'm not sure if the tile is 8" OD or ID, I'm just letting you know what he told me. If it was 8" ID I would have to think that would be enough room for a 6" insulated liner.

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

I should add that I definitely want to do things the right way, I don't want to mess around with my family's safety when it comes to a wood furnace. That being said, one of my biggest concerns is not spending a lot of money right now because the house is in rough enough shape that we aren't sure if we are going to do a major remodel (windows, doors, siding, roof, insulation, interior remodel, possible addition, etc.) or just tear the whole thing down and start over. Nothing would likely be done for the next 4-5 years. I'm not worried about dropping 5k on a Kuuma because I could put it in the new house if that is the route we decide to go. However, I don't think it makes sense to drop 5k or even 2k into a chimney and then possibly tear it down in 4-5 years.

 

[mga]

the tiles in my neighbor's chimney looked like an earth quake rattled them apart with huge gaps in them and none of them aligned.

before he could sell the house he had to fix that, so they dropped a SS flex liner down and connected that to the fireplace. town inspected and passed it.

there was a thread here a couple of years ago where many of the guys dropped the liner in themselves and attached a cable to it to pull it up...or something like that. maybe you could dig that old thread up and read how simple it was to do.

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

UPDATE:
It sounds like because the clay liner was so cracked and damaged I could not count that as my insulator and would need to have an insulated liner put in to be up to code. However, to maintain the 6" diameter required for the VF-100 there would not be enough room for an insulated liner. I started investigating what it would take to remove the tile myself and I found several tools. I settled on this...
I welded up the flail style tile breaker from scrap pieces. I bought 3 10' pieces of 1/2" ready rod for $6.59/each and a handful of coupling nuts. Cut 1 of the rods into a 2', 3' and 5' piece. Attatched to my 18v drill and I was amazed at how easily the tile broke apart. If I had to do it over again i would have welded the coupling nut on one end of each rod section and a jam nut on the other. It was difficult to get them separated sometimes and just a single jam nut would be enough to stop it from tightening the rod sections together.

 

[Marshy]

Nice job. That cinder looks to be in good shape after getting the tile out. The 8x8" square clay liners are ODxOD so you should have a true 8x8" area to put your insulated liner into now. Does that sound accurate from your experience?

I'm glad to see this thread updated, I don't think there are too many out there that show this process. I would have does the same thing as you did after seeing the condition of those tiles. You didn't have anything to loose. Are you putting the liner in or hiring someone to do the rest?

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

Nice job. That cinder looks to be in good shape after getting the tile out. The 8x8" square clay liners are ODxOD so you should have a true 8x8" area to put your insulated liner into now. Does that sound accurate from your experience?

I'm glad to see this thread updated, I don't think there are too many out there that show this process. I would have does the same thing as you did after seeing the condition of those tiles. You didn't have anything to loose. Are you putting the liner in or hiring someone to do the rest?

Thanks. From what I've read and can understand that is correct. I was hoping to do it myself and I was looking at an insulated flex liner from Woodland Direct. ID is 6" with 1" of insulation giving me a 8" OD. It should fit but as you can see in the picture below there are a few areas were there is a "ring" of mortar, I assume this was to keep the tiles somewhat centered and secure. In the pics you can clearly see the one and if you look closely you can see at least 1 if not two more (I tried taking the pics with my phone but that was not working so I had to try to use the DSLR with a zoom lens while holding a flashlight and balancing on the ladder). If the tile was 8" OD then the 8" liner should fit but it might get a little tight, I'm worried about getting it half way down and then snagging something and damaging the liner, (I have no idea how tough they are).

 

[dave_dj1]

I love seeing innovative ideas at work. Keep us posted.

 

[Highbeam]

Would be nice to form (smash) the leading end of the liner into a point with enough taper to guide it into the center of those rings. Otherwise some way to wiggle the leading edge of the liner to fall into the center of each ring is needed.

Can you knock the rings out from the top by setting a long pipe on the ring and hitting it with a sledge from above?

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

Would be nice to form (smash) the leading end of the liner into a point with enough taper to guide it into the center of those rings. Otherwise some way to wiggle the leading edge of the liner to fall into the center of each ring is needed.

Can you knock the rings out from the top by setting a long pipe on the ring and hitting it with a sledge from above?

Thank you for the reply. I see they do sell pulling cones to attached to the liner but they're $54. If I can knock the rings out like you suggest I think just tappering the end like you say, if not the cone might be worth it.

I had been thinking about using black pipe like you suggest since it is fairly strong and I can get a 10' stick from Menards for about $9 and easily couple pieces together as I need to. The first ring is 14' down and they only get deeper so it might get a bit heavy and hard to manage. Doesn't help that the chimney sticks up about 10' from the roof so I'm working off a ladder. There was also some mortar down at the bottom that I've been chiseling out from the inlet hole. If the rings are as hard as that stuff I don't think it's moving without a lot of force and potentially damaging the blocks.

 

[Mustang71]

I've pulled many chimney liners down very bad chimneys. That's the fix for a chimney issue. I've seen the stainless steel liner for fire place inserts and wood stoves and furnaces.

 

[dave_dj1]

My grandfather used to have an old cast iron flat iron on a chain to clean his chimney. I wonder if you could do something similar to get rid of the overflow of concrete in there?

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

My grandfather used to have an old cast iron flat iron on a chain to clean his chimney. I wonder if you could do something similar to get rid of the overflow of concrete in there?

That's a good idea.
Maybe my best bet is to find a short length of 8" OD PVC pipe or something and lower it down to see if it fits, that way I can be sure I have the clearance.

 

[Mustang71]

Your chimney doesn't look that bad I think a liner would go down but we do use the cones and they make a difference on those tough chimneys with offset tiles.

 

[NSMaple1]

That's a good idea.
Maybe my best bet is to find a short length of 8" OD PVC pipe or something and lower it down to see if it fits, that way I can be sure I have the clearance.

Ya, I think I would do a test run with something else before I tried pulling the liner though. I've never pulled a liner but seems there would be a good chance to snag a jagged piece of mortar and do some unseen liner damage?

 

[wrx-snowdrift]

How's this for an alternative.
Buy an uninsulated 6" flex liner and then insulated with a granular insulation like this, Chimney-Champion-Insulation. It would actually be about $130 cheaper than the pre-insulated liner and I would assume it would provide even better insulation because the majority of it would be closer to 2" thick. Anyone gone this route? There is a concern about moisture getting into the granules but I would think as long as the top plate is secure and water tight and I sealed any small cracks in the exposed portion of the chimney this wouldn't be an issue???

 

[Mustang71]

You have to cut and fold the sides of the cap over on all 4 sides then take silicone and do the perimeter of the top tile and pull the liner tight and it will hold the cap down for a water tight fit. Every liner I've seen is uninsulated. For furnaces water heaters and boilers we use aluminum liners. Fire places and wood burners are stainless steel. The masonry part of ur chimney should be a halfway decent insulator and the part in the house will be fine. That's the way I'd go uninsulated stainless steel liner being the correct size for your btu output.