Advise on felling a leaner

[SAWFISH]

I know this probably isn't the best spot to post this but I know many people visit the firewood section. My Dad wants this tree taken down, it is a large oak with a bad lean. The tree is roughly 36" across and is positioned on a hill. I told him that it is going to barber chair terribly so he thinks the large chain around it will keep it from splitting. Note: I WILL NOT CUT IT WITH THE CHAIN ON IT as if the chain breaks so will I. What are peoples thoughts and ideas on getting this tree on the ground safely? I recommended topping it out first to remove some weight, I know it will not fix the problem but it has to help. Not in the pic, on the down hill side of the tree the base is hollow so I'm not sure if the bottom of the tree where I would be cutting is hollow also. I am sure if I try to cut a section out on the front it's going to pinch the bar (Not worried about trying to fall it in any direction but just to help with less meat to hold on)
I have a MS460 with a 32" bar to work with.
Ok lets have it.

 

[Marley5]

You have the saw.

If it's just going to be used for firewood simply weaken the uphill side.....it will splinter and crack but go.

I don't notch a tree leaning that bad unless i want the lumber plus that tree can't be steered without fuss.

 

[Wolfcsm]

Can you work safely and have a very good escape route?

I agree that cutting from the back - very slowly, would be the best. If the downhill side of the tree base is hollow or rotten.

Have to have a spotter watching the top for movement. Once it starts, get away!

The really bad part is if the tree moves a little and stops. Then about the only thing is to take some more wood off the uphill side - while watching until it moves.

Certainly not an expert feller. but have dropped similar trees.

Hal

 

[chipper1]

You need to get at least a small notch on the side of the lean. You can bore the heart out from the front if it's solid once you get in there, then set the hinge with a bore cut(from each side if needed because of the size) and out the back. Or a bore cut to set the hinge/step cut the back with a trigger and let it rip.
I'm a hack and so are many others in here, you may get flamed in other areas of the site(just as I could for posting that ), but you'll get the right answer or the help you need to get the right answer.
Where you at, and how long would it take to get to the tree from the nearest main rd.
Brett
Edit, missed the part saying it's hollow.
Another picture of the front would be helpful, but same basics most likely.

 

[SAWFISH]

Can you work safely and have a very good escape route?

I agree that cutting from the back - very slowly, would be the best. If the downhill side of the tree base is hollow or rotten.

Have to have a spotter watching the top for movement. Once it starts, get away!

The really bad part is if the tree moves a little and stops. Then about the only thing is to take some more wood off the uphill side - while watching until it moves.

Certainly not an expert feller. but have dropped similar trees.

Hal

Yes for the most part I think work safely. The area on the back side of the tree is almost flat so I could escape quickly. I most definitely agree with the spotter watching for any movement.
The hardest part is that Dad thinks the chain should stay on the tree. I told him no way in hell I would cut it with the chain on.... Its hard to argue with older people. lol

 

[chipper1]

Yes for the most part I think work safely. The area on the back side of the tree is almost flat so I could escape quickly. I most definitely agree with the spotter watching for any movement.
The hardest part is that Dad thinks the chain should stay on the tree. I told him no way in hell I would cut it with the chain on.... Its hard to argue with older people. lol

By the time a spotter sees the movement the tree will be falling or exploding.

 

[rarefish383]

Anyone recommending back cutting that tree has never been around the catastrophic release of energy stored in a piece of wood that big. There is no "clear path and run fast", that's fast enough to out run it. Your reflexes aren't fast enough. You may get lucky and it just starts to lean, you back away, and it starts to creak and breaks on over, or not. After 40 years and 4th generation in the tree business, I've learned on thing, advising non pro's how to do something potentially dangerous, is in and of it's self, very dangerous. Worse yet is for a non pro, to take the advice, of another non pro. He MAY have taken down leaners like that, and just got lucky. What if you don't get lucky. If I tell you to cut it fast, how do I know your saws are as sharp and powerful as mine. If your saw is slower than mine, I just put you in a dangerous situation. Post this in the Pro section and see if the answers are different.

 

[chipper1]

Anyone recommending back cutting that tree has never been around the catastrophic release of energy stored in a piece of wood that big. There is no "clear path and run fast", that's fast enough to out run it. Your reflexes aren't fast enough. You may get lucky and it just starts to lean, you back away, and it starts to creak and breaks on over, or not. After 40 years and 4th generation in the tree business, I've learned on thing, advising non pro's how to do something potentially dangerous, is in and of it's self, very dangerous. Worse yet is for a non pro, to take the advice, of another non pro. He MAY have taken down leaners like that, and just got lucky. What if you don't get lucky. If I tell you to cut it fast, how do I know your saws are as sharp and powerful as mine. If your saw is slower than mine, I just put you in a dangerous situation. Post this in the Pro section and see if the answers are different.

Agreed, and great advice Joe.
I'd do if for him when I go thru there if needed, but as stated I'm no expert, but I am a pro as in I've gotten paid to take down a tree or two.
I've always said the difference between a pro and an expert is the expert will always know what they are talking about(you know what I mean here guys), the pro may or may not.

 

[SAWFISH]

Anyone recommending back cutting that tree has never been around the catastrophic release of energy stored in a piece of wood that big. There is no "clear path and run fast", that's fast enough to out run it. Your reflexes aren't fast enough. You may get lucky and it just starts to lean, you back away, and it starts to creak and breaks on over, or not. After 40 years and 4th generation in the tree business, I've learned on thing, advising non pro's how to do something potentially dangerous, is in and of it's self, very dangerous. Worse yet is for a non pro, to take the advice, of another non pro. He MAY have taken down leaners like that, and just got lucky. What if you don't get lucky. If I tell you to cut it fast, how do I know your saws are as sharp and powerful as mine. If your saw is slower than mine, I just put you in a dangerous situation. Post this in the Pro section and see if the answers are different.

Trust me I have thought about the point you are trying to get across. That's why I'm here asking. I am really wanting the tree topped first and maybe they can even chunk it down from there so most of the weight is eliminated before I cut it the rest of the way. Dad is suppose to have a guy come out and look at doing that this weekend. what are your thoughts on it if the tree was topped out? and maybe cut 3/4 of the way down??

 

[SAWFISH]

You need to get at least a small notch on the side of the lean. You can bore the heart out from the front if it's solid once you get in there, then set the hinge with a bore cut(from each side if needed because of the size) and out the back. Or a bore cut to set the hinge/step cut the back with a trigger and let it rip.
I'm a hack and so are many others in here, you may get flamed in other areas of the site(just as I could for posting that ), but you'll get the right answer or the help you need to get the right answer.
Where you at, and how long would it take to get to the tree from the nearest main rd.
Brett
Edit, missed the part saying it's hollow.
Another picture of the front would be helpful, but same basics most likely.

Chipper1, the tree is located in the south west corner of Jackson County, MI. Probably 20 minutes from the I-94 / 127 interchange.

 

[Dolmar Enthusiast]

Not advice, just opinion. But your pap is on the right track. After cutting a large stand of dead trees and after the second barber chair almost scared the crap outta me, I wrapped the remainder. I primarily use a heavy duty 2" ratchet strap wrapped around as many times as you can and secured.
Also can use 5/16"-3/8" log/transport chain but use a bolt to secure the ends vs using the hooks.
And generally a bore cut is the safest,and there is lots of info out there about how to bore. Definitely have an adequate saw to several the fibers quickly.
In the years following my first use of a strap to control barber chairs, I have had a couple more situations that they controlled the explosion, if you will.
If anything about what you're doing doesn't give you a warm and fuzzy feeling then don't do it. You have to know your limits, regroup ,reassess, you always have another day! Unless you do it wrong...
Always have a second or third person on site for emergency!

 

[kodiak]

I would most definitely double-wrap that with a heavy chain before I did anything else.

 

[SAWFISH]

You really think it's a good idea to wrap the tree with a chain? What if the chain gives and now you have metal flying at you at high speed??
I like the idea of holding it together but don't like the idea of a chunk of heavy chain flying at me faster than I can see..

 

[Marley5]

Not knowing the exact pitch of the hill it's tough to give proper advive but logic tells me.....when dealing with lower side rot , the upper side is safer as rot won't kick as bad.

I respect every every opinion, no doubt.
If the OP doesn't feel comfortable with dropping this large tree, then best advice is simply don't
Am i an expert ? Well been felling Oaks for 40yrs without a single injury, close calls ? Absolutely.

 

[Dolmar Enthusiast]

You really think it's a good idea to wrap the tree with a chain? What if the chain gives and now you have metal flying at you at high speed??
I like the idea of holding it together but don't like the idea of a chunk of heavy chain flying at me faster than I can see..

If you have a good chain, I would be impressed if you could bust it in this manner! Tightly wrap as many times as the length will allow and put a bolt thru it go connect ends.

The chain flying would be the least of my worries ,have you ever experienced a big explosive barber chair? That what skeers me. Like I said I use a heavy ratchet strap and without asking Google, I am confident that a good chain is substantially stronger. Whatever you use wrap tight, slack allows the tree to shock the chain more. I bet I put a bigger shock load on my transport chains dragging my 11,000lb tractor and down my rough dirt road on a trailer than a tightly wrapped tree ever would.
Again if not 100% comfortable, don't procede!
Also pics of monster to be slayed would be helpful, if possible hang a plumb Bob in the frame for reference.
Stay safe and have fun...

 

[rarefish383]

Agreed, and great advice Joe.
I'd do if for him when I go thru there if needed, but as stated I'm no expert, but I am a pro as in I've gotten paid to take down a tree or two.
I've always said the difference between a pro and an expert is the expert will always know what they are talking about(you know what I mean here guys), the pro may or may not.

I was typing as you were posting, so far your advice is the only plan I like. I still don't endorse it. I could climb it, knock the top out in a couple pieces. No need to rope, nothing to hurt underneath. Notch and drop a couple 8 footers, come down and notch and drop the trunk. That's assuming there is a good place to put a notch and back cut. Plus, I don't have a problem using an MS660 up in the tree, and I can make my back cut hit my notch perfect every time.

On the chain. The only way it will help with a barber chair is if you cut below it. That sounds like where the questionable wood/rot is. The last place I'd want to be is on my knees cutting below that chain. I'd put a shallow notch on the front, above where you have the chain and what looks like better wood, and then back cut. That's where you need a bar long enough to go all the way through and sharp enough to cut fast. If you have to cut the far side first and come around to the near side to finish, that's where your week/barber chair point will be. That's also where you need your cut to align with you notch. If it's low on one side and high on the other, that's not good. If you have to cut from both sides, you are also setting up a "Dutchman" that can turn your saw into a super sonic projectile.

Chances are some of the methods above might work fine. If I were standing there and it looked solid I might just put a small front cut and then back cut. But I have saws big enough and chains sharp enough to do it. The problem I have with advice is, what I'm thinking in my head, might not hit your ears as I mean it to.

I think the biggest thing that worries me is you say you have a 32" bar and a 36" cut to make. There are only two ways to do that, cut part way from one side and finish on the other, then you might not have level cuts. Or reach across the trunk to start the cut and you will have all of the stress under your chest. A bore cut may work, I'm not the biggest fan of them. The first one I saw the bore must have been too deep and as soon as the saw hit the trigger the whole log shot backwards across the stump. So, I've been bore shy.

Sorry for not being very helpful and trying to scare you. It might go fine, it might not, the not part scares me, Joe.

 

[chipper1]

The first one I saw the bore must have been too deep and as soon as the saw hit the trigger the whole log shot backwards across the stump.

By to deep do you mean cut into the hinge/not enough holding wood, was this on a hard leaner.
That would make me "trigger"(bore cut) shy too. I can see how that could happen, I've just never seen it happen.

 

[cantoo]

I've never chained a tree but I very seldom cut big trees either though. Wouldn't it be better to use 2 chains, one above and one below the cut? On a 36" tree and a 32" bar I wouldn't cut the opposite side first, to me that would be asking for a barber chair on the side I'm standing on to finish the cut. I would also not consider cutting the top out first, a look at the rot on the bottom might change my mind but I doubt it.
With my equipment 066 with 36" bar and my experience I would stand on the side so that my left arm was on the leaning side, then cut a small notch at a comfortable standing height, this makes it easier to stand back as it falls. I would then slowly cut from the back side expecting a barber chair until it started to fall then I would just stand back and let it slowly fall down. I might try the chain thing too. I've cut some big trees that were above my comfort zone but I just took my time and did a lot of " what ifs " as I went along and made changes as needed.

 

[rarefish383]

I've never chained a tree but I very seldom cut big trees either though. Wouldn't it be better to use 2 chains, one above and one below the cut? On a 36" tree and a 32" bar I wouldn't cut the opposite side first, to me that would be asking for a barber chair on the side I'm standing on to finish the cut. I would also not consider cutting the top out first, a look at the rot on the bottom might change my mind but I doubt it.
With my equipment 066 with 36" bar and my experience I would stand on the side so that my left arm was on the leaning side, then cut a small notch at a comfortable standing height, this makes it easier to stand back as it falls. I would then slowly cut from the back side expecting a barber chair until it started to fall then I would just stand back and let it slowly fall down. I might try the chain thing too. I've cut some big trees that were above my comfort zone but I just took my time and did a lot of " what ifs " as I went along and made changes as needed.

Think about it? You have to cut the opposite or off side first. Once you finish the first side of the back cut, when you walk around the tree to finish the back cut, that automatically makes it the near side. You can't finish from the far side. If you are looking at the pic calling the left side the far side, that has nothing to do with the near and far side of the cut. I might be standing on the other side looking at you, so I would be calling your right my left and vice versa.. The far side has to be where you start and the near side is where you finish. As far as climbing it, if you are not a climber I would say it would be quite foolish to try a tree like that as a starter. If you have been climbing for over 40 years, and the base is not shot, that tree would be a piece of cake. That's why I said I would not make recommendations from MD where I can't see. I said if I were standing there, I might do this or that, pending on the condition, and that is what I would do myself, with 40 plus years experience, not what I'd recommend. I make no recommendation because I don't know the OP's skill level or the condition of the tree.

 

[Dolmar Enthusiast]

I've never chained a tree but I very seldom cut big trees either though. Wouldn't it be better to use 2 chains, one above and one below the cut? On a 36" tree and a 32" bar I wouldn't cut the opposite side first, to me that would be asking for a barber chair on the side I'm standing on to finish the cut. I would also not consider cutting the top out first, a look at the rot on the bottom might change my mind but I doubt it.
With my equipment 066 with 36" bar and my experience I would stand on the side so that my left arm was on the leaning side, then cut a small notch at a comfortable standing height, this makes it easier to stand back as it falls. I would then slowly cut from the back side expecting a barber chair until it started to fall then I would just stand back and let it slowly fall down. I might try the chain thing too. I've cut some big trees that were above my comfort zone but I just took my time and did a lot of " what ifs " as I went along and made changes as needed.

2 wrap positions would be better, but I can't see putting one below the cut. I would place one above head height and one just above the cut,12"-16"
Although I am not recommending this unless adequate experience isalready installed in feller, so just stating what my approaches would possibly be...