xRoguex
ArboristSite Lurker
ms261cmq - almost 2 years.
Muffler mod and it runs like A BEAST.
Muffler mod and it runs like A BEAST.
Auto-Tune / M-Tronic
- Thread starter Jonny Quest
- Start date
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I have a soft spot for carbs, they are such a clever piece of engineering that are kinda fascinating. But AT/MT systems still use carbs but control the fuel delivery and constantly change tune according to temp, altitudes, air density etc. These systems are really just a bridge or stepping stone before fuel injection becomes the norm. Once we have small, cheap, reliable FI carbs will be fast forgotten just like the auto industry. My main problem with AT as it sits right now is how the OEM's use it as a tool to make money and prevent users from being able to make updates, make resets and plug their saws up to their own PC. I believe this will all change in the future and we will be able to plug up our saws and make changes as we see fit. It will be great when that day arrives.
I’m a big fan, had one of the original ms362 cm’s sold it to a member here and he had it ported and it’s still running strong.
My 241 is great, 661 flawless. Just picked up a Husky 562 with Auto tune so we shall see but I’m sure it will be fine.
That said they are harder to fix if, IF something goes wrong. As stated it’s not going to get better, Fuel injection is coming. While I’m sure it will be fine I can assure you I won’t be one of the first buyers.
My 241 is great, 661 flawless. Just picked up a Husky 562 with Auto tune so we shall see but I’m sure it will be fine.
That said they are harder to fix if, IF something goes wrong. As stated it’s not going to get better, Fuel injection is coming. While I’m sure it will be fine I can assure you I won’t be one of the first buyers.
All of my saws are M-Tronic and I wouldn't have it any other way. I've had the 261 C-M for nearly a year and I've never had an issue of any sort. I am also one of those that is excited about fuel injected saws.
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
You've gotta add one more choice to the poll: Love and Hate.
I really like the theory behind the Auto Tuners. On paper it seems like it takes all the guess work out of tuning and can compensate for any altitude or saw situation. I guess, that's where I see the most problems (the Hate part). The systems try and compensate, or basically over compensate for various problems that the saw can encounter. Yet, the sensory is restricted to the carb itself. So, you have this little Chinese made doo dad hanging off the side of the carb that is compensating for various conditions that it doesn't have enough sensory parameters to understand. In my opinion, that is why Husky especially, had a ton of problems with the early auto-tuners.
Being an airframe and powerplant mechanic in my first life, I worked plenty of these systems that were able to detect and compensate for various readings taken from multiple critical areas in order to calculate fuel/air mixture. I believe for these systems to work correctly, they need a minimum of an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor. So, you're running your saw and its getting hot. How can that doo dad on the inlet side of the carb know that and compensate for it when there's no sensor to give it a temp reading on the exhaust side of the machine? Airleaks aside, that may be why a lot of these saws have gone to an early grave--too lean for conditions, as the carb can't fully understand how and for what it is compensating. From those constant too lean conditions, you get under lubricated bearings, which causes excess heat and abnormal wear. Remember, many of these saws are infamous for losing bearings, especially the teflon caged bearings that can't tolerate as much heat as metal caged. That could also attribute to early failures of the bearing seals that cause airleaks.
This is just my two cents. I may be totally off base, but I think these saw manufacturers should not reinvent the wheel, but instead use what already exists to develop a sound working new product. So, Love/Hate it is. I'm doing a rebuild on one these so my frustrations are more than my happiness with these auto-tuners.
Cheers,
Dan
I really like the theory behind the Auto Tuners. On paper it seems like it takes all the guess work out of tuning and can compensate for any altitude or saw situation. I guess, that's where I see the most problems (the Hate part). The systems try and compensate, or basically over compensate for various problems that the saw can encounter. Yet, the sensory is restricted to the carb itself. So, you have this little Chinese made doo dad hanging off the side of the carb that is compensating for various conditions that it doesn't have enough sensory parameters to understand. In my opinion, that is why Husky especially, had a ton of problems with the early auto-tuners.
Being an airframe and powerplant mechanic in my first life, I worked plenty of these systems that were able to detect and compensate for various readings taken from multiple critical areas in order to calculate fuel/air mixture. I believe for these systems to work correctly, they need a minimum of an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensor. So, you're running your saw and its getting hot. How can that doo dad on the inlet side of the carb know that and compensate for it when there's no sensor to give it a temp reading on the exhaust side of the machine? Airleaks aside, that may be why a lot of these saws have gone to an early grave--too lean for conditions, as the carb can't fully understand how and for what it is compensating. From those constant too lean conditions, you get under lubricated bearings, which causes excess heat and abnormal wear. Remember, many of these saws are infamous for losing bearings, especially the teflon caged bearings that can't tolerate as much heat as metal caged. That could also attribute to early failures of the bearing seals that cause airleaks.
This is just my two cents. I may be totally off base, but I think these saw manufacturers should not reinvent the wheel, but instead use what already exists to develop a sound working new product. So, Love/Hate it is. I'm doing a rebuild on one these so my frustrations are more than my happiness with these auto-tuners.
Cheers,
Dan
So far I have been less than impressed, more so with Husqvarna's implementation of the 550 and 562, and how long it has taken them to mostly sort them out. The Mtronic system while more reliable than the AT models, seems much more crude and and often seems to never get the tune quite right. The V3 or whatever number we're on may take care of that.
I believe the main issue Husqvarna had, was not introducing the new designs and control systems in stages. The vast majority of problems the 550 and 562 had came down to basic carb, mechanical design and QC problems. However the blame was often put on the AT system itself. Stihl rolled out most models with standard carbs, this allowed dealers to get used to the new designs, and the issues new designs often have, without dealers freaking out about electronics they didn't understand.
The big issue I take with both Husqvarna and Stihl, is the fact they're not allowing the end used the ability to download an app, so we can plug in OUR saws to a computer or phone via at least a USB cable. For the avradge guy this isn't a big deal. However for a guy that depends on a saw to make his living, having the ability to diagnose and fix his saw, without relying on a more often than not incompetent dealer, is a must IMHO. Until the software is made available to everyone, I don't see the AT and Mtronic systems ever being liked. I have a reader that I plug into my 97 Chevy, with an app on my phone I have real time readout, and can read and clear codes. The reader cost I believe 20 bucks, the app was $1 Remember this is on a 21 year old pickup.
I believe the main issue Husqvarna had, was not introducing the new designs and control systems in stages. The vast majority of problems the 550 and 562 had came down to basic carb, mechanical design and QC problems. However the blame was often put on the AT system itself. Stihl rolled out most models with standard carbs, this allowed dealers to get used to the new designs, and the issues new designs often have, without dealers freaking out about electronics they didn't understand.
The big issue I take with both Husqvarna and Stihl, is the fact they're not allowing the end used the ability to download an app, so we can plug in OUR saws to a computer or phone via at least a USB cable. For the avradge guy this isn't a big deal. However for a guy that depends on a saw to make his living, having the ability to diagnose and fix his saw, without relying on a more often than not incompetent dealer, is a must IMHO. Until the software is made available to everyone, I don't see the AT and Mtronic systems ever being liked. I have a reader that I plug into my 97 Chevy, with an app on my phone I have real time readout, and can read and clear codes. The reader cost I believe 20 bucks, the app was $1 Remember this is on a 21 year old pickup.
MountainHigh
Selective Tree whacker
^ ^ agree!
In this disposable, and increasingly electronic society we live in, if you walk into a mechanic shop with no idea what is wrong with your vehicle, (who the hell knows when a sensor or computer goes sideways in a modern vehicle), you are a sitting duck for financial abuse. Everyone needs an OBD reader
if for nothing else than to have some direction to start troubleshooting and/or just to keep em honest.
"The average car today can have between 25 and 50 central processing units (CPUs) controlling these functions and more, often networked but sometimes operating independently."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/how-cars-have-become-rolling-computers/article29008154/
In this disposable, and increasingly electronic society we live in, if you walk into a mechanic shop with no idea what is wrong with your vehicle, (who the hell knows when a sensor or computer goes sideways in a modern vehicle), you are a sitting duck for financial abuse. Everyone needs an OBD reader
if for nothing else than to have some direction to start troubleshooting and/or just to keep em honest."The average car today can have between 25 and 50 central processing units (CPUs) controlling these functions and more, often networked but sometimes operating independently."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/how-cars-have-become-rolling-computers/article29008154/
The good news is that manufacturers can't hide anymore, we as consumers have more power than ever to force manufacturers hand. The power sites like this and other media outlets have, is not something manufactures can ignore any longer, without taking huge losses in some form. Every problem and grip "right or wrong" is seen buy everyone the world over.^ ^ agree!
In this disposable, and increasingly electronic society we live in, if you walk into a mechanic shop with no idea what is wrong with your vehicle, (who the hell knows when a sensor or computer goes sideways in a modern vehicle), you are a sitting duck for financial abuse. Everyone needs an OBD reader
"The average car today can have between 25 and 50 central processing units (CPUs) controlling these functions and more, often networked but sometimes operating independently."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/how-cars-have-become-rolling-computers/article29008154/
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
I guess the most disappointing factor for me, is that, since there is no sensory system that can actually detect parameters to make proper adjustments, the saws melt down catastrophically instead. If you are lucky, you have warranty. If you are unlucky, you get the shaft.
I'd like to see a secondary mode or a protective state that doesn't allow the operator to run the saw until catastrophic failure. If you are going to go advanced--do it right, not half arsed! I mean, I'd much rather pay an hour of shop time to see where the problem is or to interface the saw, than to buy a new piston, cylinder and have to pay the hour+ of shop time, plus labor to rebuild the saw.
I agree these systems are half-assed no doubt about that. However there may be reasons for not using a sensor for the exhaust, like contamination from the oil and additives in the oil. Really these systems set fuel in a pretty reliable fashion. Too lean power and rpm's drop, too rich rpm's drop, too much heat power and rpm's drop. So I don't believe not having a sensor in the exhaust is the problem at all. Their should however be a limp mode if all of a sudden a lean condition occurs, instead of the saw running until it's untimely demise.
Myself and many hear do not want to rely on a dealer for repairs, which is why many of us are turned off buy these auto tuning saws. With the way things are today not having a simply way to access the system, or at least be able to update the firmware is asinine, unethical and almost illegal IMHO. My DSLR camera gets regular firmware updates I download, if I had to go for a dealer for that I'd move to a different brand. That's where I believe we are right now, if these big O P E players don't get their acts together, another company may come in and steal the show.
Myself and many hear do not want to rely on a dealer for repairs, which is why many of us are turned off buy these auto tuning saws. With the way things are today not having a simply way to access the system, or at least be able to update the firmware is asinine, unethical and almost illegal IMHO. My DSLR camera gets regular firmware updates I download, if I had to go for a dealer for that I'd move to a different brand. That's where I believe we are right now, if these big O P E players don't get their acts together, another company may come in and steal the show.
an exhaust temp probe is probably not required as they could be run simply on a fuel/airmap, but they should have at the minimum a TPS, a air temp sensor a tach signal and a MAP sensor. with those four you could run it D jetro. an exhaust temp gauge on a piston engine is more for timing then A/F and most wide bands can't handle all of the oil form a 2 stroke at least not and have a decent life span.
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
Agree on the limp mode, and that is what I was saying above. Again, I do my repairs and am building one of these saws. For me, too lean = too hot! Having a temp sensor in, or on, the cylinder (forget the exhaust) somewhere would give an indication that the **** is about to hit the fan, ie., triggering the "limp" mode, as you call it.
I recall working on the F-16, and 20+ years ago we were having a similar problem. We had serious starting system problems and were forced to interface with the system controller to troubleshoot where the fail was. The US guys usually opted to toss the troubleshooter and would try throwing parts at the system based on experience. We used the interface to upload and set the header only most times. The Isrealis weren't having any of that. They designed a totally new system controller, new trouble shooter and bypassed all the Lockheed junk. The US ended up buying the systems for every US F-16 from them. Something like that needs to happen here. Someone clever enough will come up with a way to bypass Husky and the gang.
I recall working on the F-16, and 20+ years ago we were having a similar problem. We had serious starting system problems and were forced to interface with the system controller to troubleshoot where the fail was. The US guys usually opted to toss the troubleshooter and would try throwing parts at the system based on experience. We used the interface to upload and set the header only most times. The Isrealis weren't having any of that. They designed a totally new system controller, new trouble shooter and bypassed all the Lockheed junk. The US ended up buying the systems for every US F-16 from them. Something like that needs to happen here. Someone clever enough will come up with a way to bypass Husky and the gang.
Yeah a cylinder head temp set in right below the exhaust port would do wonders in that department....it could even be a throw away unit that simply melts an internal link at XXX degrees...would be well worth it vice frying the P&C.
It would be 'interesting' if a company made a AT system one could retro fit to their saw that could be plugged up to a PC....now that would stir the pot.
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
Exacarry. All diagnostics like those tuner kids do on German and Asian race cars.
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
I'm guessing the logic to read the carb and coil diagnostics is in the little black box that only Husky dealers have. Not sure about Stihl, as I haven't messed with one of the auto-tuners from them yet.
I'm thinking that a computer and programming savvy guy could do it with something like an Arduino or Raspberry pi micro PC.
I'm thinking that a computer and programming savvy guy could do it with something like an Arduino or Raspberry pi micro PC.
Ed Crawford
ArboristSite Operative
All of that will come with fuel injection if or when that comes. No offense, but all of the other mess y'all are talking about adding to them would only worsen the situation we're in now. The only thing I would like to see happen is the ability to plug it in yourself.
The sad part is that we don’t need any of it. I have two old saws that are easier to tune, easier to keep in tune, and more forgiving with the tune than any of my new stuff. And they make a nicer kind of power overall. Plus they are better balanced and just generally nicer to be around.
This poll is swayed by dealers, guaranteed.
I don’t know a single pro saw-hand that prefers auto tune, or any of the newest saws. They buy them because they want Husky’s or Stihls and the choices become limited then. Some of those guys have taken to buying up parts saws to keep their old stuff running. I should do a real poll amongst people who rely on their saws for a living..maybe next winter.
Ridiculous, being forced into this crap on all machinery.
This poll is swayed by dealers, guaranteed.
I don’t know a single pro saw-hand that prefers auto tune, or any of the newest saws. They buy them because they want Husky’s or Stihls and the choices become limited then. Some of those guys have taken to buying up parts saws to keep their old stuff running. I should do a real poll amongst people who rely on their saws for a living..maybe next winter.
Ridiculous, being forced into this crap on all machinery.
[QUOTE="CR888, post: 6550817, member: 109954"My main problem with AT as it sits right now is how the OEM's use it as a tool to make money and prevent users from being able to make updates, make resets and plug their saws up to their own PC. [/QUOTE]
You can do resets on Stihl's Mtronic without plugging into a computer.
I too would like software to let me query the Mtronic. Manufacturers should be required to make some form of diagnostic software available. The aftermarket may come out with it. I have aftermarket tuning software for some of my cars. It can be quite comprehensive and you can very easily blow up the motor if you tune it wrong.
I think the OEMs are not releasing the software primarily because customers will screw it up. People will yank the cord in the middle of a firmware update, bricking the ECU. People will put a bad tune on, blow the motor then blame the manufacturer for letting them screw up. I've seen those repeatedly in the tuner car community.
You can do resets on Stihl's Mtronic without plugging into a computer.
I too would like software to let me query the Mtronic. Manufacturers should be required to make some form of diagnostic software available. The aftermarket may come out with it. I have aftermarket tuning software for some of my cars. It can be quite comprehensive and you can very easily blow up the motor if you tune it wrong.
I think the OEMs are not releasing the software primarily because customers will screw it up. People will yank the cord in the middle of a firmware update, bricking the ECU. People will put a bad tune on, blow the motor then blame the manufacturer for letting them screw up. I've seen those repeatedly in the tuner car community.
AlfA01
ArboristSite Guru
Yes, but that plug doesn't tell you whether you have an airleak or not. The current setups detect a change in the saw (airleak) and try to compensate and many times end in catastrophic failure. I'm not cheering for the auto-tuners in anyway, but if they did it, they should do it correctly. With a carbed saw, the operator will notice some changes in the saw and have to make adjustments to compensate for whatever condition the saw has. The auto-tunes do all of that automatically and don't give the operator command over what will happen. Since that is what we have, there should be a fail safe that prevents the saw from melting down, that's all I'm saying.
Agreed. I like my saws with regular adjustment carbs. Hell, I'm against even limiter caps on the jets that prevent a fella from adjusting too much. Until about a two months ago, I had never dealt with on of these auto-tuners. But, since I must be something of a masochist, I bought one that had suffered a meltdown and took it on to rebuild. I'm piecing it back together right now and am giving feedback where I see issues.
