Chainsaws and fire fighters

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

sbhooper

Addicted to ArboristSite
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
444
Location
North Platte, Nebraska
I just had a conversation with my fire fighter kid this evening. He has been fighting fires non-stop for the last several days. We had an interesting chainsaw conversation.

Here is the crux of what we talked about. Fire fighter crews, both private, federal and state, pretty much go by federal regulations on saws.

Most crews have tried Husqvarna, Stihl and this year, the saw of the month has been the Makitas. The Stihls have failed miserably, because of geysering issues. On a fire, they pop the fuel cap and fuel flies out and has caused saws and other fires to explode. They have been telling Stihl for several years, and Stihl has never been willing to fix the issue. They are done.

Husqvarna, overall, has held up pretty well and seems to be the good choice and they are going back to them.

The Makitas run well, but have an extremely flimsy chain brake setup and a real stupid cold/warm weather switch by the carburetor. They are not well-liked.

It looks like after several years of trial and error, that Husky is going to get the nod and the other companies are going to lose out, simply because they are not listening to the people that put the saws through the toughest test out there.

Loggers have given the same feedback on the geysering, with the Stihls.

It seems to me that any company that wants to piss away federal contracts, because they will not fix issues, is not destined to do well. This will be an interesting topic to follow, but as it stands now, I am becoming less of a Stihl fan. A company that does not want to listen to the people that truly test their product, is not going in the right direction.
 
Having seen the Forest Service report on fuel geysering; I’m confident it is being made a bigger deal of than it actually is. How do you propose venting positive pressure from a fuel tank affixed to an engine designed to be used in any position?
 
Having seen the Forest Service report on fuel geysering; I’m confident it is being made a bigger deal of than it actually is. How do you propose venting positive pressure from a fuel tank affixed to an engine designed to be used in any position?

It is a problem on newer stihl saws because the fuel caps don't use threads just lock tabs, once you turn the cap it's open releasing pressure all at once. Threaded caps can't open that fast and the pressure bleeds of as you turn the cap. The stihl caps can do that if a person takes a little more time turning the cap.
 
I call BS on no crews buying Stihl. The 1128 series Stihl saws are still the standard in wildland. The fuel geysering was due to a bad run of tank vents. If the flip caps were really that big of a deal we would have heard about it before 2016 with the 440s, 441s, 460s and early 461s.

All saws will vapor lock when they’re hot. You have to find a cool spot and let them sit before you refuel, regardless of your caps or saw. Any saw will geyser if given the chance under those conditions. Any sawyer needs to think about what they’re doing.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see more orange on the line, but I don’t think I will any time soon, and my crew will be sticking with creamsicle colored saws.
 
It’s not just Stihl chainsaws. Brush cutters, fuel bottles, generators, and fire pumps have done it. The chainsaws are the most common though.

It is a problem on newer stihl saws because the fuel caps don't use threads just lock tabs, once you turn the cap it's open releasing pressure all at once. Threaded caps can't open that fast and the pressure bleeds of as you turn the cap. The stihl caps can do that if a person takes a little more time turning the cap.

The geysering is caused by the rapid depressurization of the fuel; which is an issue with the 1/4 turn caps more than anything. I make sure to hold mine shut and slowly release pressure while listening for the hiss.
 
Firefighters who are working in elevated temperatures may not have the option of finding a cool area. As for time, if you’re working to prevent the spread of a blaze, they may not have time to wait for the saw to cool down. And as for “slowly twisting the cap”, relying on that type of nuanced training is too prone to operator error.

It wouldn’t be hard to have a manual vent button on the tank, if Stihl really wanted to keep the tabbed quarter-turn flippy caps. But I think the OP is saying Stihl isn’t listening to feedback, saying they know best.
 
Are they unable to modify the saws?

It doesn't make sense for American farmers, already breaking their backs and going under, to have to pay even more for an additional feature because the few saws needed by fire fighters need the feature.
 
Firefighters who are working in elevated temperatures may not have the option of finding a cool area. As for time, if you’re working to prevent the spread of a blaze, they may not have time to wait for the saw to cool down. And as for “slowly twisting the cap”, relying on that type of nuanced training is too prone to operator error.

That sort of attitude is what gets us hurt. If a firefighter goes down they’re no good to anybody, and then several guys from the crew have to make sure that guy gets out and then the crew’s really hurting. There’s a methodology to what’s going on. There’s a lot of hurry up and wait where you can take the time for the saw to cool off and then refuel it, file the chain, add your bar oil, eat, tap out the air filter, all the little nuances that make a person a good sawyer.

Of course, had you taken S-130, 190, 212, your pack test, ICS 100, L-180, got your red card and spent even a couple months on the line as not even a sawyer, but an FFT2, you’d realize that if you can’t find a cool enough spot to refuel you probably shouldn’t be where you are.

But hey, us wildland guys don’t know anything.
 
I saw a demonstration for a nascar type chainsaw refueling system. The saw’s refueling cap gets replaced with a new insert. The MSR fuel bottle also has an adapter that replaces it’s cap. You unlock the bottle and the saw using the scrench, then press the bottle into the saw insert and twist. The fuel in the bottle is dumped into the tank and the vapor in the saw is directed into the bottle. Basically doing what the EPA fuel dispensers do. Every saw needs an insert and every bottle needs the fueling adapter. This keeps any fuel or fuel vapors from being exposed to an ignition source. I don’t know the cost, but it’s expensive.
 
Of course, had you taken S-130, 190, 212, your pack test, ICS 100, L-180, got your red card and spent even a couple months on the line as not even a sawyer, but an FFT2, you’d realize that if you can’t find a cool enough spot to refuel you probably shouldn’t be where you are.

But hey, us wildland guys don’t know anything.

Was that an attempt at a ***** slap?

I don’t need to defend my statement. The fact that all those “trained” guys are having problems with geysering, and a forest report says there is a problem with saws geysering, tells me that it doesn’t matter how much training they get. And the attitude that you wildland guys know everything is part of the problem. Mistakes happen. Mistakes that can cause additional damage. Cost lives. Maybe the manufacturer can do something about it, if they care to.

Brush your hair.
 
Was that an attempt at a ***** slap?

And the attitude that you wildland guys know everything is part of the problem.

Brush your hair.

No, but you are unqualified to tell others how they need to do that job, but honestly, what pissed me off the most, is that you came in with the statement about how there may not be time or someone may not be able to get to a cool area. If you were trained in it at all, you’d know, and I’ll say it again, if you can’t find a cool spot to refuel a saw, you shouldn’t be where you are.

We don’t know everything. But we do know how to do our job. People get hurt doing it. It’s a fact you have to accept going in. We don’t have a duty to get hurt or die doing it, but it happens. It’s one of the few jobs where we can do everything right and still not come home.

My hair is fine, thanks. Right now it’s not long enough to have to brush.
 
Derf, you are on the money. They have actually had chainsaws blow because of this. If you saw the country that my kid was in this last week, it is obvious that they do not always have a cool, safe, place to re-fuel. Popping a cap and having geysering, anywhere close to where there may be a spark, is not a good thing. There are probably more cautious ways to do it, but these guys are a grab and run and are not going to screw around trying to make something work that has issues. If Stihl does not think that a Forest Service contract is lucrative enough to find a cure, then that is their problem and Husky can capitalize on it.

They have tried Huskys, Stihls and now Makita, over some time and according to what my kid has learned from lots of experienced people, the Forest Service is going to dump Stihl, because they have been unwilling to find a solution. They have been trying to get them to do something about it for a long time. He was told that even a lot of loggers were getting away from it, as they have to be very fire conscious also.

I run Stihls and have no issue with them. If they geysered on me, it would not be a big deal.

The comment about the poor farmers having to pay a bit more for safety features on a saw, is one of the stupidest things that I have seen for awhile. Just how many dollars in safety items do they pay for now, just so that you don't see one-armed farmers running around? A couple bucks difference for a good venting system is a small price to pay, and also, you might be surprised how many saws are purchased by the Forest Service, BLM, State and private companies, using Forest Service specs. It is not something that I would ignore, if I was a saw company.
 
Oof. My body hurts from thinking about lugging that heavy bastard into the woods for a fire.
McCulloch 660, geardrive, 48'', half inch chain, you had to be tough. Standard issue was two big saws 48/60'', three or four 5 cube saws and a bunch of 10-10s with 28'' B&C for brush.
We required big saws in our region, Del Norte, Humboldt and Mendocino counties, the replacement for the 660s were 125Cs.
 
Back
Top