MS462 Bar Size... is bigger better???

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I just did a search, " is there silica in Teak wood", and it said that Teak naturally has Silica in it, and can cause blunting in cutting tools. But, as I said, I cut Locust all the time and it dulls a saw no faster than any other wood. But, some types of Locust have very deep bark and if it was skidded out of the woods, the bark is going to be packed with dirt. If I have to cut up a log I cut most of the way through, then roll it over and stick the bar in the cut and under cut it the rest of the way through. That way it's cutting the wood first and the dirty bark last, hopefully breaking through the bark before it spins 12,000 RPM in the packed in dirt. If you roll it over and see chunks of dirt you will have to cut through to finish the cut, take an ax and chop the dirt out. If I have a long log and have made cuts all the way from end to end, and can't roll it over, I take a small saw with say a 16" bar, and slowly cut through every fourth or fifth block, to make short logs I can roll. I cut slowly so it barely touches the ground, and hopefully won't dull before I'm done, But, I use it as a sacrificial chain. I'd rather dull a small 3/8's chain than 114 link big 404 chain. My wife's aunt and uncle live about 5 minutes from Raleigh/Durham Airport and I've cut lots of trees for them and see no difference from trees I cut in MD. I grew up in a 4th generation tree care family. One of the first things you learn is a saw will cut wood for days and not dull much, unless you hit dirt, then it dulls fast. I'm talking cutting firewood, not milling. Milling is a whole different story. Please understand, I'm not trying to talk down to you. I just don't know you or your skill level. The best way I can put what a little dirt does to a chain is, take a brand new razor, rub the blade on your concrete side walk 3 times, then go shave with it. If you are cutting up a log and break through into the dirt for 1/2 a second, and then do that ten times, it's like running your chain on the sidewalk for 5 seconds, at 10-12,000 RPM. As for sparks flying from the bar, I've seen them in daylight, cutting up brush with a loose chain. Figured it was from the chain flopping back and forth and rubbing on the inside edges of the bar. Tightened up the chain and no more problem. But, don't over tighten the chain, that will burn it up and definitely cause sparks. I've hit metal and seen sparks fly, instant dull. Do a self check and cut up a log on the ground like you usually do, then walk down the other side and see if there are any lines in the grass or dirt where you nicked the ground. That's the biggest cause of a fast dulling saw for a new guy. Not trying to lecture, I just saw you were new here, and hoped I could help.

Inquiring minds want to know....
The web is full of folks saying Ironwood/Osage orange/Locust dulls chains quickly.
You are saying they are all running the chain in the dirt, and the wood itself is the same as osk or maple, with regard to dulling the chain.

This deserves it's own thread, but for now, any ideas on how we could do an actual test? I have Locust, Shagbark and oak as testing materials. I can de-bark the test wood if I had an actual scientific way to measure chain cutter dulling.

I nearly always use a log lifter, so running the chain in the dirt is a rarity for me.
I buck in the woods, no skidding logs.
My land is primarily NC bottom land that adjoins some tobacco fields.
Its possible the bark has clay dust in it from the wind, but hard to prove.

Splitting hairs but hey, I'm a saw geek.
 
Inquiring minds want to know....
The web is full of folks saying Ironwood/Osage orange/Locust dulls chains quickly.
You are saying they are all running the chain in the dirt, and the wood itself is the same as osk or maple, with regard to dulling the chain.

This deserves it's own thread, but for now, any ideas on how we could do an actual test? I have Locust, Shagbark and oak as testing materials. I can de-bark the test wood if I had an actual scientific way to measure chain cutter dulling.

I nearly always use a log lifter, so running the chain in the dirt is a rarity for me.
I buck in the woods, no skidding logs.
My land is primarily NC bottom land that adjoins some tobacco fields.
Its possible the bark has clay dust in it from the wind, but hard to prove.

Splitting hairs but hey, I'm a saw geek.

The only way I could see making something like that work is with a harvester that can count the number of cuts done per chain.


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I was being a little generic, Pine, Maple, Willow is definitely softer than Oak, Hickory, and Locust, and the soft wood cuts faster. But, it still really doesn't dull the saw much faster. There are always "other" things that contribute to dulling saws. Cutting clean wood is not one of them. I buy most of my saws at farm auctions, all farmers have chainsaws. That doesn't mean they take care of them like a professional tree service. If a pro service had to stop a crew of ground men every half hour while the crew leader sat down to sharpen a saw they would be out of business in short order. Every time a homeowner or firewood scrounger cuts into barbed wire on his first cut, and then burns his way through the rest of the tree, he cusses it and tells his poker buddies he ruined a new chain on some Ironwood. Then his poker buddies tell all of their friends about the evil Ironwood. That's how stuff on the internet spreads. Every one on the internet has the same voice as every one else. All I can say is my Dad was in the tree business and made enough money to put me through private schools, the U of MD on a Botany Major, and in 1999 I passed the MD Tree Expert Exam. I'm 63, retired, and basically all I do is hunt, fish, play with my saw collection. I can cut Oak, pretty much all I have, Locust, my favorite, Hickory, least favorite, and not dull them up.

As far as a test? Find a local GTG and make a day trip. Especially if some of the major saw builders are there. I think Randy (MasterMind) used to live in NC. If you are using a log lift/jack, it shows you are trying to keep your saw out of the dirt. It also shows you are cutting relatively small trees, probably with a small saw, with small chain, that definitely dulls faster than bigger chain. My go to firewood saw is a 660 with a 25" bar, or a Super 1050 with a 36" bar. Just because I know that dirt and rocks are chain killers, doesn't mean I don't hit them. I cut all of my firewood on 3 farms, all dead Standing Oak. I'll drop the log and have the farmers lift one end with a front end loader, giant log lift, and roll pre cut blocks under the log, to keep it off the ground and 20" in the air, so I don't have to bend so far. I still hit fence wire on the felling cuts, break through and hit dirt and rocks. I just know it was me. So I put the saw on the truck, get another one, and get on with it. I understand every one doesn't have 40-50 saws like I do, front end loaders and dump trailers. But, once you start hanging with guys like that, you find that the dulling saw problems largely disappear.
 
The only way I could see making something like that work is with a harvester that can count the number of cuts done per chain.


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That also shows where pros get much more mileage out of their chains. Especially if it's one of the computer run Harvesters that cut the log, turn it side ways, strip all the limbs off, grades the log and cuts the logs in the most profitable lengths. The whole operation is done in the air, and never touches the ground, and they don't stop and sharpen them every hour.
 
Yes, I’d imagine, seeing as the shortest light bar I have is a 28 and perfect balance using the front handlebar as the fulcrum usually isn’t ideal for working all day where the tip of the bar is below the saw. It forces your left arm to work a lot harder, which just wears someone out faster.

To be clear, I’m all of five and a half feet tall and a buck-sixty, and I’ve always found it’s not a stretch to think that any reasonably fit person, regardless of size, can run these saws. Most of my guys seem to prefer mildly nose happy too.

You chainsaw nuts are a damn trip. I’ll keep using them as a tool and not polishing them in my garage.
 
Just for fun, here's a Harvesrer chain next to a loop of 3/8's.View attachment 766395

That’s 11H 3/4, the 19hx or 18hx would be close being it’s 404.
3ea6c4d57d0bb91177a8e234cd17c188.jpg



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yeah don't think I said any of that.

you imagine?

I've owned and tested a few bars see pic (which is just the tip of the iceberg of my craziness). My personal experience was the lite bar (regardless of flavor) balanced the saw much much better than a regular weight bar. That also goes for a 261 362 440 461 460 461 064 066 660 661 084 088 880 572xp 562 390 394 395 385 3120 346 7910...well just every saw I've helped tree monkey work on so that list could get long.

It’s exactly what you said. If it’s not, why post all those test figures? Going by your own test results you aught to be selling Cannon bars.
 
So you’re saying that pseudo scientifically tested temperature is directly correlated to rail hardness and sprocket tip life?

I don’t think so.

As to a 25 standard vs a light, I’d imagine the standard bar would balance better on that saw than a lightweight one.

It’s exactly what you said. If it’s not, why post all those test figures? Going by your own test results you aught to be selling Cannon bars.


So using a $2,300 Flir gun to measure temps is a sham "pseudo" scientific method. I'll stick with my tests vs rely on his "imagination" /feeeeelings.

Show me where I say that the test figures equated to...sorry "directly correlated to rail hardness and sprocket tip life" ?

"Exactly" what I said...whatever Sir, It's not even implied...well maybe you get that from the test result numbers. But it's certainly no where stated as such.

Selling - I do believe Cannon is a better bar. I often say that. If fact I go out of my way to only sell lite weight bars. And often tell people if they want a regular weight bar especially for milling cannon is a better bar. I believe the best bang for the buck is Tsumura though. And up until now Cannon hasn't had a lite bar out...which by the way you could get 3 tsumura lites for the price of 1 cannon lite. And it's not that Tsumura is cheap. In fact up until Tilton closed up shop and MC took over, the only way to get them was through thechainsawguy and he charged more than stihl lites.

All that said I often get feedback from guys excited about how well tsumura holds up vs the stihl and oregon lites they were using. Sugi is good too but I personally don't like that the cutouts are all the way through the bar... I personally think that is a weaker design. But I am no engineer so make your own determination.
 
So using a $2,300 Flir gun to measure temps is a sham "pseudo" scientific method. I'll stick with my tests vs rely on his "imagination" /feeeeelings.

Show me where I say that the test figures equated to...sorry "directly correlated to rail hardness and sprocket tip life" ?

"Exactly" what I said...whatever Sir, It's not even implied...well maybe you get that from the test result numbers. But it's certainly no where stated as such.

Selling - I do believe Cannon is a better bar. I often say that. If fact I go out of my way to only sell lite weight bars. And often tell people if they want a regular weight bar especially for milling cannon is a better bar. I believe the best bang for the buck is Tsumura though. And up until now Cannon hasn't had a lite bar out...which by the way you could get 3 tsumura lites for the price of 1 cannon lite. And it's not that Tsumura is cheap. In fact up until Tilton closed up shop and MC took over, the only way to get them was through thechainsawguy and he charged more than stihl lites.

All that said I often get feedback from guys excited about how well tsumura holds up vs the stihl and oregon lites they were using. Sugi is good too but I personally don't like that the cutouts are all the way through the bar... I personally think that is a weaker design. But I am no engineer so make your own determination.

Are the tsumura lite bar like Stihl or Oregon that if you can tweak them well popping faces out?


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Then perhaps you should say they’re the best bang for your buck instead of saying that it’s a better quality bar.

Because it’s not a better bar than a Stihl lightweight bar, but for guys who run saws for fun and not for a living it may be a better option, as the bar won’t be run enough to wear out and it’s not worth the upcharge to a better bar. Stihl, Cannon & GB (damn near nla stateside) all build a better bar. In the real world, where these things get worked to death, sprocket tip life and rail hardness matter, not how hot the bar gets after a few cuts. Soft rails wear out and then the bar has to be replaced. Short lived sprocket tips are a pain in the ass when they blow out unexpectedly in the field. I am not impressed with Tsumara or Sugihara sprocket tips. Even Windsor and Oregon last longer. Not only that, but they’re easier to find and replace.

My next question for you would be then: why post all that thermal data if it means nothing? I too have a $2000 FLIR gun, it’s great for finding hot spots, but the accuracy of it reading temperature leaves something to be desired. I mean, a thermocouple in the right range, which are cheap, mated to a Fluke multimeter is usually a better option for accurate temperature readings. It’s actually meant to measure temperature. Spending more money on an instrument does not mean it’s the best instrument for the job.
 
Then perhaps you should say they’re the best bang for your buck instead of saying that it’s a better quality bar.

Because it’s not a better bar than a Stihl lightweight bar, but for guys who run saws for fun and not for a living it may be a better option, as the bar won’t be run enough to wear out and it’s not worth the upcharge to a better bar. Stihl, Cannon & GB (damn near nla stateside) all build a better bar. In the real world, where these things get worked to death, sprocket tip life and rail hardness matter, not how hot the bar gets after a few cuts. Soft rails wear out and then the bar has to be replaced. Short lived sprocket tips are a pain in the ass when they blow out unexpectedly in the field. I am not impressed with Tsumara or Sugihara sprocket tips. Even Windsor and Oregon last longer. Not only that, but they’re easier to find and replace.

My next question for you would be then: why post all that thermal data if it means nothing? I too have a $2300 FLIR gun, it’s great for finding hot spots, but the accuracy of it reading temperature leaves something to be desired. I mean, a thermocouple in the right range, which are cheap, mated to a Fluke multimeter is usually a better option for accurate temperature readings. It’s actually meant to measure temperature.

I do say it's the best bang for the buck. I didn't say it was a better quality bar than cannon. I said it was vs stihl. come on man, get your facts straight. Do you even read any of this or just type what your imagining?

rail hardness - The feedback I get from guys including loggers is how happy they are with the rail wear vs their stihl and oregon bars.

how hot the bar gets doesn't matter. Ok got it!

tips not easy to find? ebay...come right to your door. and half the cost of a stihl tip.

I think FLIR Systems Inc. would argue differently. sheesh.

and your tests are posted where?
 
the poly inserts? I've not seen one pop out. Seen sugi pop out.

The Sugihara ones I’ve had I’ve never popped the inserts or tweaked them well popping out undercuts of faces, if you do this with a Stihl or Oregon light weight bar you will put a tweak in the bar down by the dogs.


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popping out undercuts - yeah well I wouldn't do that with any bar. And I don't care how many loggers you say do it or how common practice it is.

It's chainsaw bar not a pry bar.

Another bad habit of many loggers is not cleaning their air filter. Then they complain about the variety of problems associated with not doing so. SOOO easy to do. But no, just pure laziness. Too much work. Too much effort. I shouldn't have to do that. BS!

And yet another is running the cheapest oil they can find and doing so 50:1. Because it saves money! Yet they will take a 10min smoke break. They will complain when the saw has to go into the shop and they will blame the saw. When the reality is it only costs about .15-.25 more cents per a gallon of gas to mix 40:1.
 
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