Fully Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil Vs Standard?

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Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.

The word "synthetic" is not a technical term but is an advertising phrase used by oil companies. Oil companies should really use the five oil groups to describe their product. The root cause of your headaches is probably an additive they use to make the group 4 and 5 oils work properly.
 
The two stroke oil saga continues,,,,,,,

All know is there’s a blend of synthetic/ Castor oil we use for castiron/steel sleeve two strokes and there’s a full synthetic blend we use in chrome and nickasil cylinders.

Hotsaws101 on you tube says for stock saws to use a full synthetic bel ray and for a ported saw to use the motul 800 full synthetic both oils produce less carbon deposits.

My husky dealer says to use non ethanol high test gas and the husky Xp + two stroke oil.

Now with castiron with a high nickel content like for engine block cylinders and disc brakes they form a glaze that’s as hard as chrome. There’s nothing wrong with a castiron cylinder as long as we use a Castor blend oil in two strokes. In castiron cylinders in fourstroke engines when we install chrome rings they take longer to break in. But the wear actually stops or slows Down as the rings are seated. On the racing engines 30 seconds of wot it took to seat the rings.
But that’s another post.

I remember mixing one can of two stroke oil to one gallon of gas for my Clinton engine on my rupp dart go kart.
 
Castor has it's place, but not in a normal saw IMHO, a race saw sure.

H1R is not an oil I recommend for use in saws, it won't always run right, and most of the testing done says it robs power due to poor combustion. Motul 800 is good stuff but a bit much in most applications.[emoji111]

I have mentioned this a thousand times by now lol.[emoji6]
 
My humble opinion....

Syntetic oil are ranked by some scales
API , JASO ,GLOBAL ,ISO-

Usually JASO is a good standard scale...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Automotive_Standards_Organization

A JASO-FD syntetic oil are the best choice.

But...

If you usually mix with mineral oil, DONT use fully Syntetic.
A good fully syntetic has additives that clean the foulings of the piston and the crank : and generally a 2T feeded with mineral oil mix has some of them.
foulings goes everywhere in the cylinder and piston, with catastrophic consequences.

This is an example : fully syntetic oil additives start to clean the foulings of 2T usually feeded with mineral oil :

1478973108.png
 
Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.



I would suspect it is not the oil thats the problem for your headaches but the fuel. I raced motocross for decades and even when we ran all 4 strokes and I was the Finnish line flagger, At the end of the day I always had a pounding headache from the racing fuel everyone was using. Even though I love the smell of racing fuel, it always gives me a headache.
 
Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.

I used a couple hundred gallons of 50:1 mix with the Stihl orange bottle in all sorts of saws, blowers and trimmers this last year with no problems. Employees breaking my stuff on the other hand is a different story.
 
The two stroke oil saga continues,,,,,,,

All know is there’s a blend of synthetic/ Castor oil we use for castiron/steel sleeve two strokes and there’s a full synthetic blend we use in chrome and nickasil cylinders.

Hotsaws101 on you tube says for stock saws to use a full synthetic bel ray and for a ported saw to use the motul 800 full synthetic both oils produce less carbon deposits.

My husky dealer says to use non ethanol high test gas and the husky Xp + two stroke oil.

Now with castiron with a high nickel content like for engine block cylinders and disc brakes they form a glaze that’s as hard as chrome. There’s nothing wrong with a castiron cylinder as long as we use a Castor blend oil in two strokes. In castiron cylinders in fourstroke engines when we install chrome rings they take longer to break in. But the wear actually stops or slows Down as the rings are seated. On the racing engines 30 seconds of wot it took to seat the rings.
But that’s another post.

I remember mixing one can of two stroke oil to one gallon of gas for my Clinton engine on my rupp dart go kart.

Great post!!


Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]
 
I’ve got 3 br700s and a br800 that run on the orange bottle. The br700s have for a couple years with no issue. I know it’s been said it can carbon up the valves. I’ve never experienced the problem, but the stuff isn’t sitting around idling either.
 
They've toughened up the 4mix models since they first came out so that take more abuse, but running that mix will cause large amounts of carbon buildup. Stihl even offers a product to clean the carbon out, doesn't work all that well though. In regular 2 strokes the orange bottle works well enough, 4mix engines need a synthetic or synthetic blend.[emoji111]
 
In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!
 
In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!
That is very interesting, thanks.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
 
In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!
But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!
 
CR888, Sir you over rate my tenacity. I just enjoy sharing information. Searching the web for accurate information about oil is difficult. So much B.S. out there. I am very sick of going to a site and reading "specially formulated", boy I hate that term because it means nothing. I have learned a good Group 3 motor oil does not smoke nor does it fall out of suspension even without any "special formulation". LOL.
 
In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!
Some of what you said is simply incorrect. I've done the research over the last 20 years myself. Yes lot's of bad and misunderstood information out there.

One example is the fact Esther oils have such a low molecular weight it penetrates into the upper layers of metal, plus it's polarized so it clings to metal. Synthetic oils do not prevent break in, that's an old wives tale, and has been debunked by manufacturers time and time again. Break in oil is used simply to flush engines built in small shops, manufacturers send them out of the factory with synthetic oil.

Some of the synthetic oils with high flash points do have a harder time combusting in normal use, but are very good for milling and such. Synthetic oils are not made of one component, the dispersants, solvents and other additives will affect combustion properties. That said we really haven't seen a difference in power even with the heavier synthetic oils, at ratios down to 16:1 in fact small gains, maybe do to better ring seal.

The reason we tend to recommend synthetic oil is because we've seen no drawbacks in actual use. Less buildup, less engine wear better thermal protection.

Will non synthetic oils do harm? No of course not, but the cost difference is non existent, and most convention oil has a % of some type of synthetic anyway.[emoji111]
 
But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!
I have played with all types of not only oils, but fuels and additives. The gains can be substantial. I have a pretty good combination for cookie cutting, most guys do. For normal cutting I just run what I've see protects the best and runs good, don't worry too much about it in a work saw, pretty much any oil will work there, except maybe Lucas oil lol.[emoji111]
 
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