Fully Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil Vs Standard?

[Termite]

Termite , as a former Stationary Engineer and not a Chemical Engineer I classify Dino or Mineral Oils in the Group II & III API guidelines , Synthetics are governed more by the Group IV & V Spec,s . As for Amsoil Dominator or Interceptor Grade Synthetic Oils are 50:1 rated oils , although they do have the benefits of the additives of Sabre they do not have the additional viscosity lubricity and Shear strength of Sabre Professional which is Manufacturer recommended at ratio,s from 50:1 to 100:1 . This old school premix methodology gives me all he protection I require at various fuel to oil ratios for different 2 stroke small engine applications . P.S. Sabre @ $10.50 / litre my cost !

Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $17.83/liter
under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For stock to moderately modified engines.
15.4 viscosity @ 100ºC, 89.6 @40ºC, viscosity index 183, density .88, 155ºC flash point
unapproved rating: JASO FC
If under 70 percent of this oil is actually oil what is the remainder of their "specially formulated" concoction. Notice they don't mind charging you plenty for group one oil and probably a lot of cheap solvent to help it mix with the gasoline. Although I don't know for certain I bet they call this oil full synthetic.

 

[bwalker]

Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $17.83/liter
under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For stock to moderately modified engines.
15.4 viscosity @ 100ºC, 89.6 @40ºC, viscosity index 183, density .88, 155ºC flash point
unapproved rating: JASO FC
If under 70 percent of this oil is actually oil what is the remainder of their "specially formulated" concoction. Notice they don't mind charging you plenty for group one oil and probably a lot of cheap solvent to help it mix with the gasoline. Although I don't know for certain I bet they call this oil full synthetic.

Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.

 

[North by Northwest]

Antique chainsaws are unlike today's chainsaws. Even if they were FB rated oils still are a very poor choice. They sucked back then and they suck now.

Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $17.83/liter
under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For stock to moderately modified engines.
15.4 viscosity @ 100ºC, 89.6 @40ºC, viscosity index 183, density .88, 155ºC flash point
unapproved rating: JASO FC
If under 70 percent of this oil is actually oil what is the remainder of their "specially formulated" concoction. Notice they don't mind charging you plenty for group one oil and probably a lot of cheap solvent to help it mix with the gasoline. Although I don't know for certain I bet they call this oil full synthetic.

Termite , the class III rating is a semi synthetic or blended synthetic oil actually if memory serves me correctly . At 65 it's over 40 yrs since I served my Diesel apprenticeship lol. Actually a lot of the issues with 2 cycle engines today in my opinion especially mineral based dino oils usage , is the synergistic effect of the base oil and ethanol fuel . Thus my original recommendation for Synthetic oil over cheaper mineral oil in today's fuel market .

 

[Termite]

Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.

Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick?
My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.

 

[bwalker]

Termite , the class III rating is a semi synthetic or blended synthetic oil actually if memory serves me correctly . At 65 it's over 40 yrs since I served my Diesel apprenticeship lol. Actually a lot of the issues with 2 cycle engines today in my opinion especially mineral based dino oils usage , is the synergistic effect of the base oil and ethanol fuel . Thus my original recommendation for Synthetic oil over cheaper mineral oil in today's fuel market .

Your memory is off so is the rest of the stuff you posted.

 

[North by Northwest]

Yes warming the engine up is good practice.

Cold seize mean anything to you ?

 

[bwalker]

Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick?
My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.

API group three is a real thing.
Your assertion about juicing poor oils with additives is completely false. For starters with two cycle oils there are pretty narrow standards for things like sulfated ash which prevents this. Which is why buying an actually JASO certified oil instead of trusting Scamsoil is important.

 

[CR888]

A lot of the poor info broken is spewing is just wrong and conflicting. I'm not going to even start to go into it. Just stop.

 

[North by Northwest]

Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick?
My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.

Termite , yeah numerous snake oils out there . Most definitely Api Grade III oils are valid specs for semi or blended syn. oil . Grade IV & V are full syn & full syn with additives . It would appear that certain members of this forum presume Amsoil Products to be in the snake oil classification . As to base oils mineral oil is mineral oil just a carrier and combustion product . Additives in my opinion are specific to the intended usage of the product . The point I unsuccessfully was trying to convey , is that a Premium Synthetic oil would be prudent over a mineral grade 2 cycle oil combined with current ethanol fuel available today . Proprietary issues are common in oil , grease and fuel additives . However current Safety legislation provides the basic chemical analysis via msds sheets for any hazardous component . As I have previously mentioned , I have used Sabre in numerous 2 cycle applications for over 10 yrs without any mechanical wear or failure . However as I also advised there are at least an additional 6 Syn oils on the market of equal quality available . The jest of Sabre use for me is the flexibility it provides within numerous air cooled , liquid cooled or even marine small engine applications @ a reasonable price point , obviously others disagree !

 

[North by Northwest]

Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.

Actually I am 100 % correct.

"The ISO L-EGD and JASO FD are the exact same performance specification"

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-2-2-stroke/

Not when I last was evaluating oils , EGD rating was always a 3 hr test evaluation where as FD was only 1 he failure rating . Anyhow I digress , have it your way Jethro , ratings change !

 

[MacAttack]

Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?

I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.

 

[North by Northwest]

Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?

I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.

Echo Powerblend or Echo Powerblend Gold ? lol. FD Rating would put it in the Ashless Group ( less than .18 % ) ash content . FB & FC Rating Low Ash Group ( .18 -.25 % ) ash content . The Old TCW-3 Marine Oil specifications dealt with low ash compliance for environmental compliance back in the day , hope this helps within your application Bud !

 

[MacAttack]

Echo Powerblend or Echo Powerblend Gold ? lol. FD Rating would put it in the Ashless Group ( less than .18 % ) ash content FB & FC Rating Low Ash Group ( .18 -.25 % ) ash content . The Old TCW-3 Marine Oil specifications dealt with low ash compliance for environmental compliance back in the day , hope this helps within your application Bud !

Thanks, it does help!

I think i have a bottle of Power Blend "Extended Life", was wondering if it was low ash for small air cooled engines or if that ideology is going away.

 

[North by Northwest]

Thanks, it does help!

I think i have a bottle of Power Blend "Extended Life", was wondering if it was low ash for small air cooled engines or if that ideology is going away.

As previously advised the Jaso rating will supply your answer lol. Ash is still a very prevalent issue within engines . It can be a simple lubricity product or liability long term with potential for internal engine component deposit damage potential under certain operating perimeters . Secondarily is the Environment impact potential . Hope this helps within your intended usage Bud !

 

[MacAttack]

Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?

 

[Termite]

API group three is a real thing.
Your assertion about juicing poor oils with additives is completely false. For starters with two cycle oils there are pretty narrow standards for things like sulfated ash which prevents this. Which is why buying an actually JASO certified oil instead of trusting Scamsoil is important.

Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $9.92/liter
Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
8.5 viscosity @100ºC, 55 @ 40ºC, Viscosity Index 128, .88 density, 174ºC flash point
rating: not tested (probably FC due to its group 1 + 2 oils)

Here is a well know oil. I consider it a "ScamOil". At almost $40 a gallon I expect more. It must have one hell of an additive package to be good for high performance, high temperature applications.
Does it work? Hell Yes. Is it the best? No. Is it a rip off? Without a doubt.

 

[North by Northwest]

Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?

Yep , Thats what I have done with Amsoil Sabre , even though it only rated for air cooled small hand held engine unit service by Amsoil it does carry Jaso FD I-SO & EGD Designation . I utilize it even in my liquid cooled Polaris 700 SKS snowmobile and Yamaha 4 Hp outboard on my duck boat . I only change the mix ratio,s according to application . I have not used the Powerblend rather the Red bottle product from Shindawa previously which is Echo,s Parent Company . Ashless or Low Ash @ 40:1 ratio is a safe bet with your units described , keep any eye on your plug and exhaust screens to access your optimal engine operation criteria . All the Best Bud !

 

[bwalker]

Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?

I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.

Low ash.

 

[bwalker]

Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $9.92/liter
Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
8.5 viscosity @100ºC, 55 @ 40ºC, Viscosity Index 128, .88 density, 174ºC flash point
rating: not tested (probably FC due to its group 1 + 2 oils)

Here is a well know oil. I consider it a "ScamOil". At almost $40 a gallon I expect more. It must have one hell of an additive package to be good for high performance, high temperature applications.
Does it work? Hell Yes. Is it the best? No. Is it a rip off? Without a doubt.

You have O clue what your talking about..again...

 

[bwalker]

Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $9.92/liter
Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
8.5 viscosity @100ºC, 55 @ 40ºC, Viscosity Index 128, .88 density, 174ºC flash point
rating: not tested (probably FC due to its group 1 + 2 oils)

Here is a well know oil. I consider it a "ScamOil". At almost $40 a gallon I expect more. It must have one hell of an additive package to be good for high performance, high temperature applications.
Does it work? Hell Yes. Is it the best? No. Is it a rip off? Without a doubt.

And btw CAS#CAS 64742-54-7 is one used for group three oils..