Fully Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil Vs Standard?

[Termite]

This paragraph was taken from the Bel-Ray website. Link https://www.belray.com/2-stroke-lubrication/

Ester based fluids will withstand great amounts of heat and will not burn in the combustion chamber. Since they do not burn, the emissions are clear of soot and ash that are commonly found when using lower grade lubricants. These esters naturally adhere to metal surfaces and create a very tenacious film, so when the lubricant is brought onto the piston, it creates a film and spreads along the surface to protect the entire component. This film is difficult to eliminate, therefore, the engine will remain lubricated through very harsh conditions.

bwalker's comment
The only oil that's in the combustion chamber is the small amount above the piston rings and excess that is forced up through the transfers. This oil must combust cleanly and fully or you end up with all sorts of problems such as exhaust port blockage, fouled spark plugs and stuck pistons rings.

Seems like a contradiction. bwalker, you say the oil combusts Bel-Ray says it does not. You also say only a small amount of oil is above the piston rings. I contend that all the oil in the mix at some point in time is above the piston rings.

 

[North by Northwest]

Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?

I should of added for additional clarification . Ashless is also normally recommended in Marine Oil application due to the lower rpm & internal temps that these units work within . Ash additives at lower temps will not burn off during combustion and will leave deposits detrimental to internal engine components and potential for excessive discharge than is admissible to the atmosphere. Low Ash formulated oil in Air Cooled application s of moderate to high rpm and more severe temperature can more readily burn of these deposits & benefit from the ash,s additional lubricity factor . Again I hope this helps and clarifies the proper use of these oil designs within your small engine applications !

 

[North by Northwest]

Ultra is a great lubricant, like for drill bits and such.

Not so great when it gets ignited repeatedly

Now that's funny ! .

 

[North by Northwest]

Actually for years two cycle oils performed very poorly..
Your assertions on castor and synthetics are also incorrect..

Poorly compared within todays Standards perhaps if thats your contention . As for Ester based Premium Syn. and Castor oils not having better cling performance when used within Alcohol based fuels your absolutely wrong . As I stated initially I successfully used Castor based Klotz BC172 racing oil blended with Methanol @ either 16:1 or 20:1 in the early 70,s Snowmobile Racing Competition . The only plant base mineral oil that would provide the cylinder wash protection and anti galling protection that this application involved . Was it dirty and necessitate routine carbon fouling tear downs , Hell Yeah ! Also have tested same oils in Hotsaw usage . Not testimonial or recommendation for your daily driver or Woodsaw !

 

[North by Northwest]

bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .

Andre , just curious as to what had changed from last week when you actually " liked " this response . You seem a little inconsistent . Although CR & Ben cannot understand transferring the rational of the merits of an Automotive or Commercial Truck Fleet Oil Group Rating to a 2 Cycle Oil Group Rating for Clarification of various operating situations , I expected better from you !

 

[Ted Jenkins]

For starters pre mixed oil and gasoline is not what lubricates your engine. When the premixed oil and gasoline pass through the carb and enter the engine the vast majority of fuel portion of the mixture flashes into vapour and the oil drops out of suspension coating the cylinder walls, bearings, etc. The piston then descends and pushes the vapour into the combustion chamber where it can be compressed, ignited and do work. The only oil that's in the combustion chamber is the small amount above the piston rings and excess that is forced up through the transfers. This oil must combust cleanly and fully or you end up with all sorts of problems such as exhaust port blockage, fouled spark plugs and stuck pistons rings.
Synthetics like some esters and PIB's are useful because they combust very cleanly, yet maintain excellent film strength on bearings and cylinder walls. In the old days high density mineral base oils or bright stock were used to provide the same sort of film strength, but instead of reaching there critical point and unzippering into the easily combustable components they where made of like synthetics they instead partially combusted and form all kinds of residue. This manifested itself in port blockage, heavy smoke, etc. Castor functioned similar to heavy oils except under high heat it polymerize into ever more complex carbon chains and form a varnish that all but the highest temps will not combust fully. Of course the penalty for this is port blockage, smoke, and heavy deposits on the ring lands which will stick a ring sooner or latter. Additives can be used to mitigate some of the deposit issues of castor's and heavy mineral oils, but they also lead to their own issues such was mettalic deposits on the crown and head that cause pre ignition and plug fouling due to metallics grounding out the spark plug.
So oils that burn very clean are indeed very important and have in fact been the main advancement in two cycle oils over the years. Not only do they provide for less smoke, but they also provided for longer engine life and higher HP over time due to better cleanliness of the ring grooves.
Ratings and specifications are very important because different applications require different formulations. What works well in a outboard motor, works poorly in a chainsaw. Specifications tell a guy which oil is suitable for which application and that set oil meets certain test criteria that pertain to the quality of the lubricant.

I have torn down hundreds or perhaps a thousand or so and one thing became clear that certain oils did not matter much over others. I concluded like I said there are pros and cons. That does not mean that all specifications is with out value. Just my take. Thanks

 

[North by Northwest]

Here is what stihl Ultra looks like.
Look at the bottom of the ring land and notice the wear.
It had 90 PSI of compression and would not run (obviously). Low hour machine too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Red , I have neighbours that use Ultra in their saws for over 100 hrs no issues since they use Non E-fuel efuel as do I . On the other hand I have decarboned numerous saws and blowers and trimmers with these same issues using Synthetic Ultra and numerous other Mineral oils with Ethanol Fuel . My contention is the Oil may not be the basic problem ? In any case Thanks for the input Bud !

 

[North by Northwest]

No offence taken Andre !

Andre , further yes I am quite aware of of the additives Eg. acidic oxidizing & deposit inhibitors (Calcium & Magnesium Phenate chemicals) that combustion produce , these products are even used within today s Diesel Supercharger specific oils , former Diesel Mechanic remember ? Nothing dirtier than a Detroit Diesel . Also aware of the of the necessity of dispersant / sucfactant additives for moisture entrainment caused from thermal cycles of operation and storage of these small engine units . As I have previously indicated have further experience within Heavy Industrial Steam Driven Turbines , Multi Phase Compressors and Blowers which are factually the most extreme oil usage you will experience , South of Jet Engines friend ! P.S. I believe my former chemical analysis of Calcium Carbonate "Typo" would be better utilized for Acid Reflux control that JWalker may generate lmao .

 

[North by Northwest]

I have torn down hundreds or perhaps a thousand or so and one thing became clear that certain oils did not matter much over others. I concluded like I said there are pros and cons. That does not mean that all specifications is with out value. Just my take. Thanks

Well said Ted , especially within the realm of the demands of rudimentary 2 cycle engines , hence the ability for them to run on any oil from fruit oil to used diesel oil and kerosene blend lol. P.S. Sorry Ted see you indicated the fuel use was " Non " ethanol based my bad ! As I stated have friends that use ultra with no issues with their saws , even POS Poulans . I personally do not purchase Stihl Products lol.

 

[North by Northwest]

Its either certified or its NOT. Clearly you got taken.

You would rather I spend over $30 for Motul 800 just to get the warm and fuzzy feeling Certification gets you ? Sabre performs as well in the real world as do many other Non Jasco FD rated oils . I have torn down numerous units ran on Sabre to validate. Don,t require any boy from the land of the Rising Sun developing Criteria and Standards & Proceedures to validate my selection Mate !

 

[Andyshine77]

The reason Klotz oils like Original techniplate "which has no castor oil in it" is used with alcohol and nitro is simple, it will mix with throes fuels, it has nothing to do with anything else. I'm done with this absurd thread, some are clearly lonely and like to talk in circles just to hear themselves. Get a life move on.

Merry Christmas.

 

[North by Northwest]

Oh really.....you just worked that out. Well done! Keep digesting the look aid.

Hey Mate I admitted the oversight , give it a rest before I have to force feed you some Kangaroo Dung ....Cheers !

 

[North by Northwest]

The reason Klotz oils like Original techniplate "which has no castor oil in it" is used with alcohol and nitro is simple, it will mix with throes fuels, it has nothing to do with anything else. I'm done with this absurd thread, some are clearly lonely and like to talk in circles just to hear themselves. Get a life move on.

Merry Christmas.

Before you take your soiled diapers and run BC172 was Castor bean oil , noted for its extreme temperature cling characteristics , limited availibility . Never available to the general public has not been available anywhere since the 70s . What are you accreditations , said nothing of commercial grade Technicplate ! Yes of course it mixed well ....seriously ? Happy New Yr !

 

[North by Northwest]

Sorry my friend, Ben and I haven't always seen eye to eye one everything, but everything he's said in response to your posts is correct. You're out of your knowledge depth, some of the things you've said do not even have relevance when discussing air cooled two cycle engines, the rest is just completely incorrect information.

That makes no sense, as the certification is universal in all countries, JASO is actually a Japanese certification. The mention of a certification does not mean it is actually certified, it has to have the emblem along with the certification number, otherwise it is nothing more than marketing.[emoji111]

Amsoil Saber is in fact an excellent product nonetheless.

I rather doubt Certification is Universal , since ISO . Compliance within Standards and Proceedures are still lacking . I will have to check out my old container of Redmax !

 

[Andyshine77]

Before you take your soiled diapers and run BC172 was Castor bean oil , noted for its extreme temperature cling characteristics , limited availibility . Never available to the general public has not been available anywhere since the 70s . What are you accreditations , said nothing of commercial grade Technicplate ! Yes of course it mixed well ....seriously ? Happy New Yr !

How did you know I wear diapers.[emoji15] I didn't respond to your PM because it made no sense, just like everything you've said the past few days. I get it your trying to trigger people for fun, that's cool, not much to do when it gets cold up north I suppose, so you type away in you're dungeon, while eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew Code Red, hoping for a response form someone who actually tries to contribute actual information. Guys like yourself are a dime a dozen, guess you didn't get enough attention as a child, so you still behave like one. You're at least entertaining I'll give you that, every time this thread pops up I get a chuckle.

I believe Bob's correct, social media will be the death of reason.

So theirs you're reaction, have fun who ever you really are.[emoji111]

 

[BlacknTan]

I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.

What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.

It seems to me that all oils today are purpose built. Blended for a specific application, so, I don't understand why a lubricant designed for a dirtbike, outboard motor, or any other 2 stroke application would be right for a chainsaw? I well could be wrong, but i'd like to hear some thoughts..

Second, I believe the big saw manufacturers farm out the manufacture of their oils to third party vendors, or blenders. Who decides on the blend, the big manufacturer, or the blenders themselves? And who possesses the knowledge to design for each application?

People who know always tell me not to "overthink it," and that worked for awhile, but I think we'd all like to feed our saws the best lubricant available. and I'm once again questioning my decisions.. I was dumb and happy.... Maybe I should just stay that way?

 

[Andyshine77]

Outboard oil shouldn't be used in saws. Some oils are intended for use with oil injection systems only, these oils are often very thin and the engines are often water cooled. Some oils will work in both premix and injector applications.

Other than that most premix oils of a high quality will work just fine in a chainsaw. The manufacturer ask companies to make them an oil with the basic approval ratings, they test the oil to make sure it does what it needs to, and then go with the lowest bidder. Sometimes this doesn't work out and a formula change is required or a different manufacturer is used. Echo Powerblend has been produced by at least two manufacturers I can remember. Cost is the main concern, as long as the oil provides a reasonable service life, the least expensive product is chosen. Saws run under little stress compared to a race bike making crazy power and being ran at full throttle the whole time, so generally speaking bike oils are far superior in quality, although they're exceptions.

In a normal work saw you do need to choose the product for the application, some of the race oils are, in a sense too good and tend to not burn that well under normal operation. But at that same time may be perfect if you're going to mill with the saw. some racing oils attract moisture and have no additives to protect against corrosion. But in general any premix for air cooled engines is going to work in a saw, although one should select the best oil for the intended use. Even racers will use different oils depending on the track.

 

[North by Northwest]

How did you know I wear diapers.

I didn't respond to your PM because it made no sense, just like everything you've said the past few days. I get it your trying to trigger people for fun, that's cool, not much to do when it gets cold up north I suppose, so you type away in you're dungeon, while eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew Code Red, hoping for a response form someone who actually tries to contribute actual information. Guys like yourself are a dime a dozen, guess you didn't get enough attention as a child, so you still behave like one. You're at least entertaining I'll give you that, every time this thread pops up I get a chuckle.

I believe Bob's correct, social media will be the death of reason.

So theirs you're reaction, have fun who ever you really are.

Andre , Sorry no offence intended I was joking about the diapers , however I requested you numerous times to simply advise of certain specific detail s only to receive more disparaging remarks! Entertaining ? Your Welcome Bud !

I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.

What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.

It seems to me that all oils today are purpose built. Blended for a specific application, so, I don't understand why a lubricant designed for a dirtbike, outboard motor, or any other 2 stroke application would be right for a chainsaw? I well could be wrong, but i'd like to hear some thoughts..

Second, I believe the big saw manufacturers farm out the manufacture of their oils to third party vendors, or blenders. Who decides on the blend, the big manufacturer, or the blenders themselves? And who possesses the knowledge to design for each application?

People who know always tell me not to "overthink it," and that worked for awhile, but I think we'd all like to feed our saws the best lubricant available. and I'm once again questioning my decisions.. I was dumb and happy.... Maybe I should just stay that way?

I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.

What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.

It seems to me that all oils today are purpose built. Blended for a specific application, so, I don't understand why a lubricant designed for a dirtbike, outboard motor, or any other 2 stroke application would be right for a chainsaw? I well could be wrong, but i'd like to hear some thoughts..

Second, I believe the big saw manufacturers

Black , I believe you are mostly correct in task specific oils today . However there are still several oils that allow multi tasking of oils within numerous small engine applications . Good Post Bud !

 

[North by Northwest]

Outboard oil shouldn't be use in saws. Some oils are intended for use with oil injection systems only, these oils are often very thin and the engines are often water cooled. Some oils will work in both premix and injector applications.

Other than that most premix oils of a high quality will work just fine in a chainsaw. The manufacturer ask companies to make them an oil with the basic approval ratings, they test the oil to make sure it does what it needs to, and then go with the lowest bidder. Sometimes this doesn't work out and a formula change is required or a different manufacturer is used. Echo Powerblend has been produced by at least to manufacturers I can remember. Cost is the main concern, as long as the oil provides a reasonable service life, the least expensive product is chosen. Saws run under little stress compared to a race bike making crazy power and being ran at full throttle the whole time, so generally speaking bike oils are far superior in quality, although they're exceptions.

In a normal work saw you do need to choose the product for the application, some of the race oils are in a sense too good, and tend to not burn that well under normal operation. But at that same time may be perfect if you're going to mill with the saw. some racing oils attract moisture and have no additives to protect against corrosion. But in general any premix for air cooled engines is going to work in a saw, although one should be select the best oil for the intended use. Even racers will use different oils depending on the track.

Agree with everything Andre has stated . I would like to add that power valves on water craft and more specifically deep powder snowmachines with same exhaust valving and subjected to extreme thermal cycle engine applications and engine Torque loading require their specific oil group usage only also . P.S. Liquid Cooling is the appropriate terminology , however was impressed with your knowledge of the hydroscopic potential of ester based synthetics , another additive that is routinely now added Bud , Good Stuff ! .

 

[North by Northwest]

Agree with everything Andre has stated . I would like to add that power valves on water craft and more specifically deep powder snowmachines with same exhaust valving and subjected to extreme thermal cycle engine applications and engine Torque loading require their specific oil group usage only also !

Very interesting information as to the bidder involvement via a manufacturer for the blending of oil to engine specification , where did you acquire this education Andre ?

 

[North by Northwest]

What is the Price throughout the US. for Motul -700 & 800T currently , just curious !