firewood conveyor question

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Ptsiteworx

ArboristSite Lurker
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
36
Reaction score
86
Location
Ohio
Hey all.
I have a 32' cord king conveyor that I bought off my buddy for a really good price. It was made to run off the cord king processor and we have been hooking it up to our tractor.

I want to put together a hydro power pack with a gas motor and was wondering what kind of specs it would need to run properly.

Ideally I'd like to use our really old mtd splitter and re-purpose it to run the conveyor. It has probably a 5hp I/C motor, pump, solenoid, tank etc... all in good running order. I could just take the lines off the solenoid and add quick couplers so I can plug the conveyor lines into.

Do you guys think this would work?
 
Yes, most likely except the valve may not work.
I know zip about hydraulics, but I'm thinking to run a motor, vs a cylinder, you need a different valve.
You will want forward and reverse, with reverse being spring loaded to kick back out.
I have a Built-Rite 28' hydraulic, with a belt.
Reverse is often used to clear chips or bark from the lower roller. Chips between roller and belt throws belt tracking off.
It has a very small hydraulic tank, guessing five gallons or less based on the size of a fuel can.
Power is a Honda 160 GX, or 5 hp.
Pump, not entirely sure. I did purchase a new one from Surplus center based on what Built-Rite instructed as they did not have one to send me.
It is a two stage wood splitter pump, maybe 14 gpm. The thing is, what I've read is two stage pumps should not be used with hydraulic motors, due to shifting unexpectedly.
I bought it and it is on the shelf. The original still works but the shaft seal is beginning to leak.

Edit: Could not find it by referencing the numbers, but probably an 11 gym pump.

IMG_2422.jpg IMG_2421.jpg IMG_2424.jpg
 
I would not use a two stage. As noted above, it will move fast on high flow unless loaded, then suddenly slow down. That can cavitate the motor, or cause belt issues. Then if load decreases suddenly speed up again.

Ideally, motor spools have A and B open to T (and P if open center system, i.e. gear pump) so the motor is positively supplied as it coasts down, doesn’t cavitate, and doesn’t hard slam to a stop when the valve is centered. You can make a cylinder spool (A & B blocked center) into a motor spool with some grinding on the spool, but that is another topic.
Also, depending on the load on the conveyor and belt resistance, it might drift backwards with a motor spool in the valve. There are ways around that with counterbalance or load control valves, or cross port reliefs, etc.
Do you have any schematic info from the original application?

Hydraulic circuit design should always start from the load required/desired, and work backwards to the flows and pressure required. Do you know the motor size now? Or know exactly the flow and rpm, figure backwards to motor size. And what operating pressure most of the time?
Once you know the load, (torque and speed) it is very easy to work backwards to size flow and pressures and pump and engine required.

I would expect 5hp should be plenty. A group I cut with has a 5 hp predator on a flight conveyor for firewood. Just a matter of sorting out pump and motor sizes and chain ratios, if used.
 
I will email BuiltRite later today to see what I can find out for myself, as the two stage doesn't make sense to me.
Your post confirms that doubt to be valid.
I will also see if I can photo the pump and motor.
I may pull the conveyor up to the house and pull the engine to service. I hate to pull the pump without the correct replacement on hand. I don't want the system open for a length of time and get moisture in it.
Note: I don't follow everything you've said at the moment, but I have some hydraulic books to follow along in, Industrial Fluid Power, I ordered from Surplus Center years ago.
 
Just unbolt the pump from the engine. leave the hoses attached and your system is still closed up and you can still pull the engine off.

pm me when you get more information and we can talk
 
Yes, unbolt the engine and split the love-joy coupling. Much easier to change oil and do a clean up on the bench.
These photos are from the folder that came with the machine.
I can only assume the load is never enough to shift down. (I don't like that kind of assumption however)
There is currently for sale the same machine on Ebay located on the east coast. Hand crank for elevation. Listed $5,000.

I bought this one hardly used Feb. 2010 for 5k
Since I've replaced the top drum axle (tipped it over backwards); bearings for top drum; replaced top drum motor (changed the mount replacing solid (straight) coupler with 'overhang load adapter' and double chain coupler; replaced single valve (it was still functional) with dual valve and added lift cylinder (hand crank lift jack failed); replaced tire/wheel seal; added zerks to wheel frame pivot points; and added tongue jack. Original Honda 160 GX runs great. I've gone through several add-on hour meters but they don't last due to moisture.

IMG_2427.jpg IMG_2429.jpg IMG_2428.jpg
 
so it sort of works. i pulled the cylinder and beam of the splitter then installed two female 5600 couplers on the valve block. i plugged the conveyor lines into those and it would run and the detent would even hold it open. problem is i think the motor is so old and under powered it was bogged way down and sucked a ton of fuel only running for maybe 30 minutes.

today i bought a 6.5hp predator motor from harbor freight for 99 bucks with coupon and put a new love joy cooler on the motor from tractor supply, booked everything up and it definitely tons better. the motor is still being worked so i may just buy the 8hp harbor freight motor and new 11gpm pump and bracket from rugged made and mount that with a new hydro tank and reassemble the splitter to use or sell with the new 6.5hp.

here's what it looked like with the original 5hp
TilLbAQ


iRXHeVC.jpg

g1xrfbz.jpg

lr9flqs.jpg

TMo3p4w.jpg

5XUSeAd
 
5-6 hp should run an 11 gpm/3 gpm pump easily. there may be some restrictions. Flow control needs to be 3 ported, bypass or priority type, like SHC pics above. If flow control is two ported in line somewhere, there will be high restriction and excess energy going across relief somewhere. Causing huge fuel use, high heat, and heavy engine load
 
can you explain what you mean by 3 vs 2 ported?

eta: that is just mocked up in there. I'm going to mount everything permanently, just wanted to see if it was doable.
 
These are old photos of the original set up, single valve, and flow control under it. It appears the large hose on lower right is the suction hose to pump.
Pump to flow control valve.
Flow control has three ports.
One in; one out to valve; one out to tank (bypass?)
Directional motor valve with forward and spring loaded reverse.
In from flow control valve; out and return from hydraulic motor; bypass (when valve in in neutral)/return to tank.
IMG_4274.jpg
 
mine doesn't have that flow control.

there is a suction line from tank to pump, then a line out from pump to valve block. the valve block then has a large return line to tank when is in center position, and the two work ports for forward or reverse. these two work ports are what i put the 5600 couplers onto that feed the conveyor.
 
This conveyor in the original configuration cranks up pretty high, as there are two mounting bracket choices for the hand crank. One is on the lower frame, the other above it on a cross member. In the photo of our older son towing the conveyor the hand crank is mounted on the upper bracket for towing with the quad. This position pivots the axle closer to the tow coupler, lightening the load on the quad axle. The flip side is that the conveyor is very high and very side to side top heavy for towing. If towing on the road the hand crank can be placed on the lower mount, although the conveyor must be supported when removing the hand crank to change the mounting position.
Having changed to a hydraulic lift mounted on the lower position has limited the maximum height. For my situation, loading PackFix drums, the hydraulic is helpful by allowing me to lower the conveyor when initially filling the drum to avoid damage to pallets from dropping firewood, and raising the conveyor as the drum approaches topping off.
Having used this 28' belted conveyor I would look for several things in a new conveyor.
One is hydraulic drive. If the belt or chain jambs, hydraulic oil flow will bypass and allow the belt or chain to stall without damage. Hydraulic flow also allows for top drum or sprocket drive which is preferable, pulling the load up vs pushing from the bottom.
Another thing is hydraulic lift. This should include a means of pinning in place to prevent drift down. My conveyor does not have this as it originally came with a hand crank adjustment. The engine bay should be somewhat level, protected, yet accessible for maintenance. Major pivot points should have grease zerks. The main pivot for elevating on my conveyor did not have these. After ten years of exposure to year round mid west weather this seized. Short of a porta band or torch there is no way to disassemble or service this long tube in tube pivot. I found this frustrating. When I suggested adding zerks to Built-Rite via phone, they replied it had never been an issue before, and seemed unappreciative of any corrective criticism (which I found odd at the time, and honestly pissed me off as the day I spent trying to break it loose seemed completely avoidable for the cost of adding a few zerks). Another consideration is is the unit your considering stable, both sideways and front to back. The front to back depends on how you use it. Ideally, in the upper most position it should be anchored to something, as heavy point loading shifts the teeter toddler balance point as it moves further up and away from the axle, which is how I damaged mine. Some options include wheels that swivel, allowing more pile stacking without moving the splitter or processor, or better load stacking in trucks or trailers without moving the vehicle. Seems like a very useful option especially for pile stacking. Aside from that, is service and parts.
I have had exceptional help from Navigator, with help for my piggyback forklift when needed. I can not say enough good stuff about them. The same with SuperSplit. I've emailed Eastonmade and Andrew responded the next day. I have had good service as well from Built-Rite getting a top drum shaft and lift cylinder sent out. However, I wanted to replace the idler wheels for the return portion of the belt. These are not serviceable (wt...) as the wheels are located on a shaft between welded on washers. The shaft, with three idler wheels, can easily be replaced, but there are seven of them at a cost of something like $85. ea. plus shipping of course. There are no bearings in them, just hard rubber wheels. I have switched their locations, as some are more loaded than others, but they are wobbling at the hub, very squeaky and wore out. Surplus Center has wheels but the hub size and overall diameter is an odd one. The wheels however, are from under a dollar to three or four dollars ea. with bearings. Another thing is the belt support strips heat up in the sun and bow considerably, humping the belt up in spots, and not supporting it in others (as shown in the photos). These are belt related items and most likely don't apply to chain conveyors.IMG_1760.jpg IMG_4222.jpg IMG_4221.jpg IMG_4214.jpg IMG_2235.jpg IMG_3409.jpg IMG_1770.jpg IMG_1800.jpg
 
Looked up a flow control valve in Surplus Center catalog. 1/2' ports, $105.00
I'm not sure where you would put it. Before the directional valve?

Not sure who the clown is standing on the conveyor axle, photo taken Dec. 30, 2016, but his beard has gown out a little since then.
 
For me, it just controls belt speed.
If I understand kevin j correctly, and from the photos, it restrict flow and is a bypass back to the tank.
If the valve is opened completely the belt will shoot firewood off the end.
Something I don't understand is the return line to the tank placement is really high, at about fluid level in the tank, which I think would mix air in with the oil. (I could not find how to spell airiate)
Also, if the belt speed is really slow, an increased load will slow it down. At it's present setting, load does not seem to effect belt speed.
Which brings me back to the two stage pump. If the belt stalls, due to the pile being so high pieces jamb into the pile and catch on the belt paddles, nothing happens. The pump does not kick down, or if it does it is not noticeable and the oil bypasses.
Hope this helps in some way.
 
Sandhill is correct the flow control is basically just the speed control ( also power because more speed means more power). I still can't understand why they use a 2 stage unless it is just for their stocking purposes, they only have to stock one style of pump. My conveyors are chain drive and belt drive. On my grain elevator style conveyors I run one with a direct drive and the other has a clutch on it. I keep the belts just loose enough that if they jam on something it just slips the belt. None of mine are belt style paddles they are all chain style. My Black creek model has a Honda with a clutch on it.
 

Attachments

  • 20181118_124739.jpg
    20181118_124739.jpg
    1.8 MB · Views: 7
  • 20181117_125242.jpg
    20181117_125242.jpg
    1 MB · Views: 7
  • 20181117_125130.jpg
    20181117_125130.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 7
  • 20181103_174614.jpg
    20181103_174614.jpg
    1.9 MB · Views: 7
  • IMG_20180608_154153.jpg
    IMG_20180608_154153.jpg
    2.3 MB · Views: 7
  • IMG_20180608_154146.jpg
    IMG_20180608_154146.jpg
    980.2 KB · Views: 7
so if mine doesn't have the flow control and the line goes directly from pump to valve it just meant the engine was not strong enough. the 6.5hp replacement is running it a lot better and not bogged down like the original 5hp was.

i like the valve because i can control direction of the conveyor and if it gets jammed the valve will just kick off to neutral and bypass
 
For what it is worth, I run the Honda 160 GX at a little over half throttle.

Flow control valve.
I run the belt at approx. 25% of max. speed. So I'm thinking, I'm only putting 25% of the pump output to use and the rest, 75% of the oil flow, is bypassing, returning through the third port of the flow control valve to the tank.
So for example, what if your pump puts out 11 gpm. and your hydraulic motor uses 8 gpm. max. The 5 hp engine may be struggling to push the extra 3 gpm somewhere and it can't. (not sure hydraulic motors have gpm limits that way) The 6.5 hp may not be bogging, but without a bypass it just burning extra fuel. I would think the oil would heat up, except with the style tank you have it probable would dissipate the heat rather quickly. The hoses might get hot though.
Not sure that's how it works, just guessing.
I could bypass my flow control valve to see but... that's not going to happen.
Maybe kevin j or someone else can jump in again.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top