A question for all you sparkies!

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This has been a bad winter. In the real world, there are some houses setting abandoned that were worth less than the owners owed on them before the pipes froze up and burst while the power was off. Just what the banks need now. Others have a generator plugged into the dryer outlet chugging away with or without being disconnected from the grid.

When push comes to shove, many people are going to do something. The double male cord is cheap, easy, and may be gotten away with. Even if you don't disconnect from the grid, in most neighborhoods, something is quickly going to give when a small generator tries to start up every refrigerator on the block. Others, people pigtailed the furnace or boiler and survived without breaking the law.

When it comes to telling people the double male cord, pull the meter, etc. is a bad idea, people are more likely to listen to another DIY than what they may see as self serving advice from a professional. Unfortunately people have been lied to by ''experts'' with an agenda so many times, they no longer trust them and often disregard the truth. This should upset people, but it is the way it is more and more.

Levels of competence vary. Those that disregard the 60 watt max sticker on a light fixture shouldn't even be changing light bulbs. Others are quite capable of doing extensive projects in a safe, workmanship like fashion. Certainly capable of putting a pig tail on the furnace and maybe installing a backfeed breaker and an interlock, the cheapest, easiest, legal way to connect a generator to the house wiring.

Now I need to get out in the garage and finish the brake job on my truck.
 
I am a utility guy in B.C., I hold authorization one level below the lineman. I am no electrician, but I have bucked lots of wood off busted primary. All I will add, and it has been said before here is, if you are around fallen powerlines, don't do a thing, or even go closer than 33' to it. Until it has been grounded back to the neutral, and if its broken, on both sides of the break.


And you have to this because the line could become re-energized at any moment, and not just because of illegal generator hookups.
 
It was not my intention to start this thread to get people riled up. What I wanted to know if there was a way I could disconnect the wire from the panel and wire a plug end onto it to plug into the generator. I also wondered if the thermostat, damper solenoid and water pump would be too much draw for a single 110v plug. I do not condone people doing electrical work themselves if they are anyway unsure of what they are doing. Be safe!

Kyle
 
Milk: If I understand, yeh pull NM wire out of panel and install this in a junction box with a flanged inlet plug(male) that bolts right on your j-box. Yes this is perfectly legal, what does this feed, just your boiler or? As far as load, a smaller generator will easily run the biggest boiler setup. Tell me if i'm way off base to what your asking? Now, I'll try and stay on topic! (And yes, a 15amp cord end will power more than your boiler needs)
 
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it's real simple... if you are not going to do it right by installing a double throw, two pole transfer switch (three pole in my case)

then run a heavy duty extension cord into your house from genset. then spider extension cords to what ever needs power.

running extension cords may sound primitive... but is actually the safest way to get power into your house. when a proper double throw transfer switch is not installed.
 
Milk: If I understand, yeh pull NM wire out of panel and install this in a junction box with a flanged inlet plug(male) that bolts right on your j-box. Yes this is perfectly legal, what does this feed, just your boiler or? As far as load, a smaller generator will easily run the biggest boiler setup. Tell me if i'm way off base to what your asking? Now, I'll try and stay on topic! (And yes, a 15amp cord end will power more than your boiler needs)

Ok thanks, I just didn't want to overload the 15 amp cord end. I think your idea here is what I'm looking for. I don't lose power that much (knock on wood ), esp in winter so until I get some $$$$ to get a propane powered backup generator to run everything I just mainly want to keep the water in my boiler from freezing.

Kyle
 
Even if you don't disconnect from the grid, in most neighborhoods, something is quickly going to give when a small generator tries to start up every refrigerator on the block.

Sorry but that statement makes me cringe.

Unfortunately, without patrolling the line you will have no idea what your going to power up when you backfeed the grid.

That being said, I wonder if people know why it is so dangerous. For those that don't know how a transformer works, here it is in a nutshell. Most power distribution systems in the U.S. deliver power somewhere between 2400 volts and 14000 volts. The line coming into the transformer at the top of your pole or to your padmount transformer is probably 2400 to 8000 volts. Obviously your house cannot use electricity at this range, so the transformer reduces the voltage to 120/240. Transformers work backwards as easily as they work forwards. Lets say your incoming primary line is 7620 and you backfeed the transformer with 240 volts, it will come out the primary bushing of the transformer at 7620volts. Now, just like Labman stated if there is a lot of load on the line, something is going to give, more than likely it will be the circuit breaker on your generator. Hopefully somebody is not touching the line for that split second, because you just energized the line with 7620 volts. But if the problem with the primary has been isolated, which is often the case in the initial stages of storm restoration, there may not be any significant load on your section of the line. Especially if the other people affected by the outage have isolated themselves from the grid. If you live on a single phase lateral of the line, there may not be any real load if the cause of the outage is a problem with the lateral.

Linemen won't heat up a section without knowing exactly what they are bringing power to, for that same reason, don't backfeed the transformer, because you have know way of knowing what exactly your heating up.

Sorry if this seems self serving, but I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing a coworker make a mistake and take 13,200 volts across his chest. For those of you who that have not witnessed a 3 phase fire, trust me its not something you want to see, and I'm sure nobody wants to be responsible for injuring/killing someone. Not a day goes by that I don't think about it.

Be safe.
 
I have a GE 600amp AST coupled with a 125KW perkins genset and 500 gal of diesel fuel. the ATS is between the main fused disconnect ( which is after the meter) and the main distribution panel ... so I think mine is basically covered... oh and the little sticker on the meter pan "Customer Owned Generation" warning sticker. I guess you gotta have that all important sticker... LOL
 
Junk: Sounds like you have a farmsite? Cattle or? Sounds like a nice setup, huge $$$. As far as new member mentioned above (Welcome!) most folks don't understand is that they are stepping up 120/240 to 7200 volts or more through the utility tub. Yeh, the comment about a breaker tripping blah, blah, blah, just not smart. The utility has way more power then your generator, it will cook your generator, or blow your panel off the wall! I seen it, wish I would have taken a picture of it.:(
 
Junk: Sounds like you have a farmsite? Cattle or? Sounds like a nice setup, huge $$$. As far as new member mentioned above (Welcome!) most folks don't understand is that they are stepping up 120/240 to 7200 volts or more through the utility tub. Yeh, the comment about a breaker tripping blah, blah, blah, just not smart. The utility has way more power then your generator, it will cook your generator, or blow your panel off the wall! I seen it, wish I would have taken a picture of it.:(

yeah.. its a farmsite... chickens... 124,000 broiler chickens... I used to have a 200 amp manual transfer switch... until I built 2 new chicken houses... I still remember the electrician asking "do you want your house hooked up to the generator? well yeah...I'm spending $22,000 on a I am not going to sit in the dark and freeze or roast while everything else is lit up like christmas... " at least we get to enjoy some fringe benefit... I have made provisions to hook up my dads house to the generator... ok almost.. the cable is run about half way there... only 75 feet to go... the house has 100 amp service.. ( small house) I see that square d has a part that goes into the panel for such a set up as having 2 main breakers so only one can be active at a time.. I have have to go pick the brain of a buddy of mine at the electric supply house. ( all panels I have on the farm are QO .. thats what existed in other buildings and thats what I specified for the new buildings.. they wanted to use home line). I liked the idea of having all the same breakers.. it makes it easier to stock replacements... for when.. not if one fails. 15 and 20 amp single and double pole. dang it turned into a novel.. sorry bout that.
 
Generators seem to be a popular subject here lately. My electricity went out because of the ice storm here recently so I bought a generator that runs 5500 watts with an 8250 surge. The extension cords are a pain but effective. I want to put in a system to make it a lot simpler.

Which is best a transfer panel or a transfer switch or would it be six of one and a half dozen of the other? I want to go the cheapest route but do not want any risk of compromising safety.

What do you experienced guys think?
 
you may want to have an electrician look at what you have in your house because most people have more load than a 5500 is going to power. you will likely want a panel with a limited amount of circuits like heat, sump, freezer, lights, bathroom, etc. everyone has different requirements its hard to generally say whats best.
 
you may want to have an electrician look at what you have in your house because most people have more load than a 5500 is going to power. you will likely want a panel with a limited amount of circuits like heat, sump, freezer, lights, bathroom, etc. everyone has different requirements its hard to generally say whats best.

I was wanting to power about six circuits with the generator. I just want it to power the bare minimum for outages.

I saw a video that Reliance put out on hooking up a transfer switch and wiring one of those up would be a piece of cake. If a transfer panel works the way that I think it works it would probably be better but a little more expensive for me to install.

I have a 200 amp service and have extra positions to power a transfer panel. Am I correct in my thinking that a transfer panel is powered out of my main service box via conduit from it to the transfer panel or from the generator. I pull the circuits (romex wire that I have attached to breakers in my main service box) out of my main service box and hook them into breakers that are in the transfer panel box. The transfer panel then makes me use either the generator circuit or the circuit coming out of the main service panel.
 
I think the best way to go on a retro fit is what I did, http://www.interlockkit.com/intro2.htm If you have a Square D or newer GE box, you may even be able to get a kit from them for less. The only wiring it takes is to the back feed breaker. You may have to move things around to free up the 2 and 4 slots for it. I looked a long time, and the interlock was the cheapest and easiest of any of the safe, legal ways to do it. What I like about it is that it gives me the choice of any circuit in the house. That does require using a little sense. You may have to leave the 42'' plasma TV off. Those Reliance panels are popular, but require a lot of wiring. Worst of all, you run out of slots real quick, Fridge, freezer, furnace, 2 for the pump, what does that leave for lighting and cooking? I have the microwave on a circuit with little else too.

I have a 6250 watt generator, plenty for the essentials, and enough left over for light in the rooms we are using, and even the computer. We cqan live, not just survive. If I got carried away, I am sure the overloads on the generator or the 30 amp breaker would remind me.
 
I have a 200 amp service and have extra positions to power a transfer panel. Am I correct in my thinking that a transfer panel is powered out of my main service box via conduit from it to the transfer panel or from the generator. I pull the circuits (romex wire that I have attached to breakers in my main service box) out of my main service box and hook them into breakers that are in the transfer panel box. The transfer panel then makes me use either the generator circuit or the circuit coming out of the main service panel.

thats how mine is. though it might be more expensive than that interlock it was the best for me because im away alot and i dont want to have to worry about the wife overloading or something else. its simple, roll up, plug the twistlock in, start it up, go downstairs and flip the six switches to emergency. i have a light i plug in to one of the unpowered circuits to see when the power comes back.

i would never plug my computer or tv into a small generator because the power and frequency are not stable like commercial power. unless you have a good ups or an inverter type generator.
 
I backfeed the power....
1. Disconnect main power supply into house to eliminate the possibility of backfeeding to the main lines and shocking a utility worker.
2. Make a heavy gauge wire to feed from your generators 220 plug to a convenient 220 receptacle. Circuit should be rated for at least the max amps your generator is capable of producing at 220v.....I use the dryer receptacle.
3. Turn off all 220 breakers except for the one for the chosen receptacle. Turn off all light switches, etc. (you can turn on other 220 curcuits as long as it's not overloading the generator)
4. Plug in generator cord into chosen 220 receptacle then into running generator.
5. Enjoy electricity in your entire house, just don't overload the generator or the circuits capacity.

****Advice: plug in all your appliances,tv's, etc into surge protectors beforehand. My neighbor had a generator that was bad from the factory and fried every electrical device in his house.

:agree2:

Thats how I do it too! I used to work on Manufactured homes, until this economic downturn, but that is how I lit up the house and was able to turn on a light in whatever room I entered. Good call cj...:clap:
 
''2. Make a heavy gauge wire to feed from your generators 220 plug to a convenient 220 receptacle. Circuit should be rated for at least the max amps your generator is capable of producing at 220v.....I use the dryer receptacle.''

That is illegal. Don't do it. The electrical companies require a fool resistant positive shut off between the incoming power and the generator. They don't trust you to remember to shut off the main breaker.

There are a number of acceptable ways to do it. None of them involve needing to remember to shut off anything. It must be a double throw switch or an interlock.
 
Just hire someone please... I don't have a lot of experience I am still young but I can tell from what I have seen so far its best to just hire someone when it comes to electrical and others have said it but I'm saying it again.

Oh and make sure you do some research on who you hire because these so called professionals can be very questionable.

I got into this before in a discussion and you can wire stuff up that might work ok for you but you have to keep in mind what the next person might come in and do. If something questionable is wired and the next person that uses it fries themselves or burns the whole house down because of it and kills a family of 4 then I would think it would be easier to justify having it done properly.
 
I have to agree not everybody should be mucking about in the main box. That includes many people taking money for doing electrical work. What really terrifies me is some of the advice I used to see on another site where these guys were talking about their experience working in plumbing, heating, electrical, etc., and they knew less about all of them than I did. There were some top pros there giving great advice. Unfortunately, many of them got tired arguing with idiots and left.

Anybody that knows much about electrical work can easily install either a transfer switch or an interlock.
 
Anybody that knows much about electrical work can easily install either a transfer switch or an interlock.

I agree 100%. I have helped an electrician do some residential wiring and it's not complicated. I have wired my garage and basement by myself. You have to know the code though.

The interlock, transfer switch and transfer panels are the only three ways that I have found that would be safe. There could possibly be other safe ways but I haven't found them

The transfer switch would require several wirenut connections inside the main service box. I'm not saying that would be bad but I like to keep my main service clean so I probably won't go that route. I'm leaning toward the transfer panel even though it would probably be the most expensive.
 

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