Advice dropping the remainder of this tree.

[Flintknapper]

Tree is a Hackberry/Sugarberry (Deep East Texas). It originally forked off at about 8' up the trunk.

A storm yesterday caused one half of it to blow down. I am left with the other half standing and leaning very hard toward my Silver Maple I planted 25 years ago. The remaining tree will not live of course and needs to come down but needs to fall a minimum of 45° away from the direction it is leaning now....90 degrees would be better.

There is a lot of tension on the tree trunk as it is limb heavy and leaning to one side. The remaining trunk is pretty solid but heartwood of these trees tends to be brittle. I've cut hundreds of trees in my lifetime..but I'm admittedly not a pro. I know the best thing to do would be to cut it from the top down from a bucket truck, but I won't be able to get anyone out here for weeks (lots of wind damage in the area). Also, we have more threatening weather forecast in the next week.

I will post pics for your consideration. I apologize for the poor quality, they are just phone pics and the lighting from the horizon makes for a difficult exposure. I can't see this tree not splitting off at the trunk (regardless the method used) if the tension is not controlled or removed. There is a Water Oak with a girth of 18' just behind this tree that has big strong limbs that I can 'rig' to if you guys think that would work.

My first thought is to cable off to the the Hackberry (up pretty high on the trunk, then run the cable over a limb on the Water Oak (anchored to a tractor) and let the Hackberry 'swing' down as it falls. I can wrap the trunk up high as necessary with strapping or chain to keep it from splitting out (hopefully)..but I would still like anyone's ideas on the best 'cut' to use at the trunk and your thoughts on where the trunk might split (down low or up by the fork)?

Thank You in advance.

Flint.

 

[old CB]

Your cable (good rigging rope is what I'd use) looks like a good plan, although without being there it's hard to say with authority.

One thing to do when making your face cut for such a hard leaner is to face the cut further from your intended lean. In other words, if the tree leans 90 degrees from your intended lay go further than 90 degrees with your face cut because as the tree tries to fall in the direction of your face it's being pulled to the ground by gravity. How far beyond to make your face is always a judgement call, difficult to say.

Also, when you make your back cut, rather than trying for a typical hinge (same thickness from end to end), keep it way thick on the uphill side of the lean, thinner on the underside. Get a pull rope up high so you can coax that thing over while you still have thick hinge-wood.

 

[Flintknapper]

Your cable (good rigging rope is what I'd use) looks like a good plan, although without being there it's hard to say with authority.

One thing to do when making your face cut for such a hard leaner is to face the cut further from your intended lean. In other words, if the tree leans 90 degrees from your intended lay go further than 90 degrees with your face cut because as the tree tries to fall in the direction of your face it's being pulled to the ground by gravity. How far beyond to make your face is always a judgement call, difficult to say.

Also, when you make your back cut, rather than trying for a typical hinge (same thickness from end to end), keep it way thick on the uphill side of the lean, thinner on the underside. Get a pull rope up high so you can coax that thing over while you still have thick hinge-wood.

I will definitely get a pull rope up high to help initiate the fall. My biggest concern with this tree hinges (no pun intended) around the wood type. It is a Texas Sugar Hackberry and in my region typically has soft outer wood and brittle, unreliable heart wood. Using the heartwood for a hinge in most cases is not an issue as you can leave it as wide as you deem necessary...but it isn't guaranteed to 'tear' loose evenly. In fact...it is just as likely to suddenly pop.

Having said that...what are your thoughts on making a bore/plunge cut (no face cut), leaving the front of the tree for a hinge. Cut the bore toward the rear leaving hinge wood there. Wedge it, apply tension on the pull rope and then use a pole saw to cut the 'release' from a distance. The trunk would be wrapped with chain. I know this will 'tear' the front of the tree trunk which I don't care about. I can deal with the trunk and stump once it is down. It doesn't need to fall from the stump...I just need for it to fall in as controlled a fashion as can be so it doesn't take out my Silver Maple. It needs to fall slightly uphill also.

I recognize the divergence from traditional felling practices here...but this type tree and particularly this situation is a bit out of the ordinary. I think it is doable...but I'm already sticking my neck out some by not waiting on a bucket truck. Just getting opinions and suggestions at this point. The tree might decide for itself to fall soon enough if we get another storm.

 

[greengreer]

I would not try to lower it off your tractor. Even if the cable doesn't snap and the tractor doesn't get yanked off the ground that limb is gonna get alot of damage. Then your going to have alot more work on your hands.
Is it going to demolish the silver maple if it hits it, or get hung, or what?

I don't know anything about hackberry, we don't have them here, but I doubt it would make it 90 deg from that kind of lean, weak wooded or not.
Is there any reason you can just leave it and let nature finish it off for you? Chances are it will break again at the rip which would shorten it up that much more than you could get it with a felling cut from the ground.
If you're really unsure, why not have a tree service come get it safely on the ground for you? Can't be that much for a no cleanup job.

 

[old CB]

Yes, reviewing all here, Greengreer is right--the lowering scheme will likely be trouble. Pretty good chance that it would swing the tree right into your tractor, as well as damaging the limb it runs across.

Just realized that you said you need at least 45 degree fall from the lean as opposed to 90 degrees. Most likely if you face it 90 degrees it will fall about 45. But you'll need a beefy hinge and a good pull line. Keep in mind, the pull line just starts the fall, and you lose any steering ability from the rope once the tree is moving.

If you're not experienced in such matters, and especially if you're not confident in your ability to control things, then you'd be wise to take greengreer's advice: either leave it to its natural end or call a pro.

It's been years since I cut a hackberry, I'm now unfamiliar with their characteristics, so don't consider me your best advisor.

 

[Jed1124]

No reason for a bucket truck from what I can see. A climber can spike up with a secondary tie in point in that oak and piece it out. 2-3 hundred to get it on the ground and walk away.

 

[Flintknapper]

greengreer Wrote:

I would not try to lower it off your tractor. Even if the cable doesn't snap and the tractor doesn't get yanked off the ground that limb is gonna get alot of damage. Then your going to have alot more work on your hands.

No..the purpose of the tractor would be to control the tension on the tree (hold it in place against the lean). I have a long 1/2" aircraft cable (over 100') that I can use and move the tractor way back. However...damage to the Oak Limb is a real possibility....so putting it over the limb was not a good idea. IF I can reach that limb I can strap off to it and sling a snatch block under it to run the cable through.

Is it going to demolish the silver maple if it hits it, or get hung, or what?

Yes, it will pretty much smash the Maple I planted 20 years ago...or with the right wind go down on a wooden fence nearby. I just finished cutting the other half of it off my storage shed, my Zero Turn mower and a 12' utility trailer. So I don't need anymore trouble from this tree.

I don't know anything about hackberry, we don't have them here, but I doubt it would make it 90 deg from that kind of lean, weak wooded or not.

Yes, I agree 90° is probably not going to happen no matter how much hinge I leave for it to swing on. Additionally...the bulk of the remaining wood is heartwood and it tends to be brittle and unpredictable in these trees.

Is there any reason you can just leave it and let nature finish it off for you? Chances are it will break again at the rip which would shorten it up that much more than you could get it with a felling cut from the ground.

"Nature" already sent the other side of it in a really bad direction and this one is sure to hit my Silver Maple if it goes. It just looks so unstable at this point I would not allow anyone to climb it for any reason....whether they felt confident about it or not. It also happens to be right near a path I walk almost daily to go down to my shop.

If you're really unsure, why not have a tree service come get it safely on the ground for you? Can't be that much for a no cleanup job.

May end up doing that...but I'm sure they are all busy now after this latest windstorm. One other thing...is I would need to find someone with experience cutting Hackberries. The crews in town (I live out in the country) are used to cutting Red Oaks, Water Oaks and Pines, but you won't find a Hackberry in town (its largely a trash tree). Pretty much everyone with any acreage outside of town has them growing along fence lines and they are well known to ranchers to be a precarious tree to cut (under good conditions).

Typically you don't really 'fell' a big Hackberry (mine is not big by any standards), you do your best to weaken the trunk and then pull the tree over. You don't want anyone around the base of it for any longer than necessary, they are terrible about splitting out.

I'd wager...I have cut more of them than most crews (from the city) have seen. But this one presents several problems...so I thought I'd solicit some expert advice before attacking this one (or not). I was looking at it a bit more today and I am not too happy with the weight distribution of the tree.

Even if I get it cabled off pretty high when the trunk turns loose there looks to be roughly equal (maybe more) weight above the tie off point as would be below. In which case the two halves will try to swap ends (trunk go up as the top goes down). If that were to happen it ends up on my Maple anyway.

So...I'm thinking, just be patient, get someone out here with a bucket truck and take it down as it should be (top to bottom).

 

[greengreer]

Guy lines don't really work that way. Even with a proper setup it would be iffy with that much lean and brittle wood. A block and a stout rope in the oak might do a little more for you but now your lookin at way more than the cost of getting a bucket or climber to it.
Can the fence be taken down easily enough?

 

[Flintknapper]

Guy lines don't really work that way. Even with a proper setup it would be iffy with that much lean and brittle wood. A block and a stout rope in the oak might do a little more for you but now your lookin at way more than the cost of getting a bucket or climber to it.
Can the fence be taken down easily enough?

Yes, fence can be taken down...but it isn't a target for the tree unless a wind were to blow the tree down that direction. With no other influence...the tree would fall directly onto the Silver Maple. IF a strong wind were to take it down...then it might reach the fence.

The part of the tree that has already fallen was blown a full 8' away from the remaining trunk.
The insurance adjuster was out here yesterday just shaking his head, could not imagine how that happened if not a small 'twister' involved.

Anyway, dropping it the direction of the 'lean' is not a good option for me if that was your proposal.

I am confident I can 'capture' the tree against the lean by cabling it off. The tree then has no option but to fall to one side or the other PROVIDED I can keep the hinge intact long enough for the fall to initiate. I think some have misconstrued my 'plan' or I have failed to explain it well enough. I do not intend to 'lower' the tree in any fashion, I simply need to prevent it from falling toward the lean.

It's the Variables and What-If's I am trying to consider....since we all know how plan's work out sometimes.

IF I can anchor the tree against any forward movement (against the lean) and pull the tree at 90° to the lean AND the hinge doesn't release until the tree is well on its way down...then I would expect to see it fall roughly 45° away from the lean...which would be plenty to clear everything. So...that would represent the best case scenario (everything worked right).

BUT...IF the hinge breaks before I can pull the tree over far enough then what will happen is the trunk will (at the very least)..swing back toward the Oak which may or may not shorten the fall toward the Maple enough to let it escape. That would be a 'narrow' miss but an acceptable outcome.

Worst case scenario....Trunk pops off just as soon as I start pulling on it and if I have miscalculated the amount of weight above the tie off point, the tree will swap ends before it has swung back toward the Oak far enough to clear the Maple.

There would certainly be other ways to 'rig' it...but not with what I have on hand. But in no wise is anyone going to climb this tree, I simply will not allow it. It is an accident waiting to happen. It will either be taken down from the top (via bucket truck) or rigged and dropped.

I looked at the remaining trunk again yesterday and have determined there just isn't enough of it left to consider a plunge cut there. But I'm also decidedly against putting a face cut in it...knowing what I do about these trees and the limited amount of wood holding it up now.

My thoughts on it would be to wrap the trunk...leave the front on the tree just cut in from the back to weaken the trunk. Let the front hold it until it tears off. The sap wood is not strong on a Hackberry...but will often hold longer than the heartwood which is nearly always brittle in older trees and just snaps at some point.

I can make the scoring cut initially with a saw standing to either side of it...then deepen that (as needed) with a my pole saw from 12' away. The idea is NOT to cut up to a point were the tree begins to fall, you lose all control over it that way, but to weaken the trunk enough to pull it over.

Not to labor the point...but Hackberry Trees (at least in Deep East Texas) are a different kind of Cat and rarely will you have a situation where it is safe to cut one down. We pretty much always pull them over.

I'll give it one last look today...but my gut is telling me to wait on a bucket truck and hope we have no more storms before then.

 

[chipper1]

Well, how'd it go.

 

[chipper1]

Well is it down?

 

[Flintknapper]

Well is it down?

Haven't done anything with it yet. We had another bout of bad weather in my area (2 events in a 2 week period) involving tornadoes and high straight line winds. Every tree company has their hands full right now...so no bucket truck help available. Still deciding whether or not to tackle it myself. The fact that it is still standing after the winds we had last week is encouraging. Suggests I have more time to deal with it than I previously thought, but it definitely needs to come down.

 

[chipper1]

Haven't done anything with it yet. We had another bout of bad weather in my area (2 events in a 2 week period) involving tornadoes and high straight line winds. Every tree company has their hands full right now...so no bucket truck help available. Still deciding whether or not to tackle it myself. The fact that it is still standing after the winds we had last week is encouraging. Suggests I have more time to deal with it than I previously thought, but it definitely needs to come down.

Wow, you guys have really gotten hit hard down there. We've had some pretty good winds here this spring as well, but nothing like down your way.
We had some pretty steady 25mph winds that broke a good sized red oak branch into another trees canopy. It's still attached to the tree and it's 50' off the ground where it's broken from the tree. I plan on throwing a line over it and pulling it down, but that's my pre"limb"inary idea looking at it from 100', I'll know better later.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up with there. I like @Jed1124 idea of securement into the other tree and then piecing it out, like he said for an experienced climber it looks like something very doable, then you can let loos on it when it's on the ground.
Keep us updated, and be safe.

 

[Flintknapper]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up with there. I like @Jed1124 idea of securement into the other tree and then piecing it out, like he said for an experienced climber it looks like something very doable, then you can let loos on it when it's on the ground.
Keep us updated, and be safe.

Yes, I will report back once it is done. But this simply is not a good tree to 'climb' unless you have squirrel-like abilities and weigh less than 90 lbs. I would need to get photos at better angles to show how badly it leans and how far those limbs extend, I'm really surprised it is still standing.

I can't overstate how unpredictable these Hackberries are. It needs to be addressed from a bucket truck or dropped in its entirety in as controlled fashion as is possible. If I could just get the last 10'-12' of the limb off of it...I wouldn't really care where or how it fell after that...because it won't hit/damage my Silver Maple.

 

[Patrick1903]

So…what happened with your tree? Is it still standing?