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Any one ride the pick down?

MarquisTree

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And this whole second crane nonsense is a joke. Its hard enough to find room to set one crane up on mosts sites.
I haven't heard any discussion about the increased risk.to the climber by having two cranes working so close to each other
 
tree MDS

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Does anyone have any links to video of this practice? As someone with relatively limited crane experience, I'd love to see this in action... kinda hard to envision.
 
imagineero

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What specific risks do you feel your exposed to by remaining attached to the ball that your not already exposed to durring normal crane removals?
It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.

As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket.

If I'm stayng in the tree, I have some control over what is going to happen, to me. I follow the practice (for better or worse) of keeping my head below the cut, so if the pick kicks or inverts I'm not going to wear it. I can also position myself in the tree so that I'm well shielded in the case of an inversion. I've been swatted, as I'm sure anyone who does crane work has been. But they've been fly swats. I also try where possible to give myself an escape route. I use 2 tie in points - flip line, and rope. I try to set it up so if If I see something going wrong with the pick, I can get the hell out of there, real fast. If I'm riding the pick, I can't get off that ride, even if I want to.

Since I don't own a crane, I have less control than someone who does. The whole issue of how the rigging is going to be set, and where, how big the pick is going to be etc, is a negotiated aspect of the work when you sub out the crane part. Generally, everyone (crane op and climber) has the right to say 'no', but as the climber you don't really have creative control. Maybe that's a good thing. Sometimes the crane op doesnt want to take the pick as I want it taken. What do you do then? His crane is on the line, but my life is on the line.

The whole justification for riding the pick, is that it's safer than staying in the tree. But my take, is that not riding the pick is always safer than riding the pick. #### riding the pick. If the tree is too dangerous to be in, then just slam it down and smash up whatever needs to be smashed. Or leave it alone and let it fall over whenever it does. Or use a cherry picker, or anything else. Get two guys in a man basket hung off that crane, and take it out piece by piece. I've used all those options at diferent times, and those are all safer options that riding the pick. Why add risk to an already risky job? To make it a little faster/cheaper?

If one of your climbers is one day killed riding a pick down, after doing a hundred jobs, or a thousand, would you say it was worth it? Don't stack the odds up against yourself any more than need be.

Do you want to be one of the alaskan crab guys who went just that bit further, for a few dollars more, and lost your whole crew? How much of a premium do you add to a crane job where the climber needs to ride the pick (if any), and do you share any of that premium with the climber above and beyond what you would normally pay them? If so, how much?

Shaun
 
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TreeGuyHR

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It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.

As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket.

If I'm stayng in the tree, I have some control over what is going to happen, to me. I follow the practice (for better or worse) of keeping my head below the cut, so if the pick kicks or inverts I'm not going to wear it. I can also position myself in the tree so that I'm well shielded in the case of an inversion. I've been swatted, as I'm sure anyone who does crane work has been. But they've been fly swats. I also try where possible to give myself an escape route. I use 2 tie in points - flip line, and rope. I try to set it up so if If I see something going wrong with the pick, I can get the hell out of there, real fast. If I'm riding the pick, I can't get off that ride, even if I want to.

Since I don't own a crane, I have less control than someone who does. The whole issue of how the rigging is going to be set, and where, how big the pick is going to be etc, is a negotiated aspect of the work when you sub out the crane part. Generally, everyone (crane op and climber) has the right to say 'no', but as the climber you don't really have creative control. Maybe that's a good thing. Sometimes the crane op doesnt want to take the pick as I want it taken. What do you do then? His crane is on the line, but my life is on the line.

The whole justification for riding the pick, is that it's safer than staying in the tree. But my take, is that not riding the pick is always safer than riding the pick. #### riding the pick. If the tree is too dangerous to be in, then just slam it down and smash up whatever needs to be smashed. Or leave it alone and let it fall over whenever it does. Or use a cherry picker, or anything else. Get two guys in a man basket hung off that crane, and take it out piece by piece. I've used all those options at diferent times, and those are all safer options that riding the pick. Why add risk to an already risky job? To make it a little faster/cheaper?

If one of your climbers is one day killed riding a pick down, after doing a hundred jobs, or a thousand, would you say it was worth it? Don't stack the odds up against yourself any more than need be.

Do you want to be one of the alaskan crab guys who went just that bit further, for a few dollars more, and lost your whole crew? How much of a premium do you add to a crane job where the climber needs to ride the pick (if any), and do you share any of that premium with the climber above and beyond what you would normally pay them? If so, how much?

Shaun
I wish you had posted this earlier in the thread. Wasted a few hrs of my time trying to explain my iffy locust crane job to a couple guys who knew better and passed all kinds of judgements on scanty or made-up observations, salted with grandstanding that had nothing to do with the job I put out there for discussion,

Thank-you.

I was gonna attach a document to hash over things some more (so as not to clutter up this thread), but now you have saved me the trouble.

For all those who attacked me (instead of critiquing my work) , or went off based on wrong info, take a look at this vid clip; seems appropriate regarding the issue of going off half-cocked.

Monty Python & the Holy Grail - Who Killed Who - YouTube

One more thing, I get it that in some professions, like logging, tree work, crane work, reputation is earned by demonstrated ability -- certs and degrees, allegations and paper mean little. And claims made on internet forums are well below those. So why do so many people posting on websites feel the need to try and prove their reputations and attack others, when the effort essentially achieves nothing? Just a question.

And one more thing:

Work safe--- I could be the consultant that investigates the tree that killed you.
 
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dbl612

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It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.

As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket.

If I'm stayng in the tree, I have some control over what is going to happen, to me. I follow the practice (for better or worse) of keeping my head below the cut, so if the pick kicks or inverts I'm not going to wear it. I can also position myself in the tree so that I'm well shielded in the case of an inversion. I've been swatted, as I'm sure anyone who does crane work has been. But they've been fly swats. I also try where possible to give myself an escape route. I use 2 tie in points - flip line, and rope. I try to set it up so if If I see something going wrong with the pick, I can get the hell out of there, real fast. If I'm riding the pick, I can't get off that ride, even if I want to.

Since I don't own a crane, I have less control than someone who does. The whole issue of how the rigging is going to be set, and where, how big the pick is going to be etc, is a negotiated aspect of the work when you sub out the crane part. Generally, everyone (crane op and climber) has the right to say 'no', but as the climber you don't really have creative control. Maybe that's a good thing. Sometimes the crane op doesnt want to take the pick as I want it taken. What do you do then? His crane is on the line, but my life is on the line.

The whole justification for riding the pick, is that it's safer than staying in the tree. But my take, is that not riding the pick is always safer than riding the pick. #### riding the pick. If the tree is too dangerous to be in, then just slam it down and smash up whatever needs to be smashed. Or leave it alone and let it fall over whenever it does. Or use a cherry picker, or anything else. Get two guys in a man basket hung off that crane, and take it out piece by piece. I've used all those options at diferent times, and those are all safer options that riding the pick. Why add risk to an already risky job? To make it a little faster/cheaper?

If one of your climbers is one day killed riding a pick down, after doing a hundred jobs, or a thousand, would you say it was worth it? Don't stack the odds up against yourself any more than need be.

Do you want to be one of the alaskan crab guys who went just that bit further, for a few dollars more, and lost your whole crew? How much of a premium do you add to a crane job where the climber needs to ride the pick (if any), and do you share any of that premium with the climber above and beyond what you would normally pay them? If so, how much?

Shaun
the climber has all the control he wants. he is setting the rigging and he is making the cuts. the crane op isn't running the show he is working with the climber. you just said you like complicated rigging. how difficult is it to set the chokes in the proper location so the pick goes where you want? i work with climbers who do it every day effortlessly. i also work with climbers who still think there topping trees and letting gravity take affect. the climbers have the most control of the situation. if they are not confident in their abilities work with someone who does or leave the crane removals to the competent. we all learned our craft from someone else and stole the knowledge. don't fight technology or keep using axes and handsaws.
 
tree MDS

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the climber has all the control he wants. he is setting the rigging and he is making the cuts. the crane op isn't running the show he is working with the climber. you just said you like complicated rigging. how difficult is it to set the chokes in the proper location so the pick goes where you want? i work with climbers who do it every day effortlessly. i also work with climbers who still think there topping trees and letting gravity take affect. the climbers have the most control of the situation. if they are not confident in their abilities work with someone who does or leave the crane removals to the competent. we all learned our craft from someone else and stole the knowledge. don't fight technology or keep using axes and handsaws.
Um, this is the same guy that once suggested having his groundies use cordless circular saws to cut up brush.. I think there was something about handsaws and porridge in there too. So realistically, you might not be all that far off base. just saying.
 
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MarquisTree

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Shawn,
I agree with a lot of what you said. Your preferred tie in method giving yourself an escape route is great.
There are many situations where the climber doesn't have ideal tie in locations.
Now this is where may have to agree to disagree.
as a climber and as an operator, in situations where we have decided to remain attached to the crane for the entire cut. I feel that climber has great freedom of movement and usually has their feet on the ground and detached from the crane in a matter of seconds after finishing the cut.
There is whole method to this technique. Its very different then how you would go about making a normal pick.
Myself and every climber I have ever worked with feel that in the right situations this method has some great safety advantages when used properly
 
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dbl612

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options part 2

not to throw another option into the mix, we have had scenarios where we rigged the crane with two live lines because we had to change how the very large pieces had to be orientated to get the out of a tight spot or manuever them away from obstacles. climber made cut, got out of the way, operator handled two lines on the load. only limitation is knowledge, experience, and co-operation between climber and op.=safety and production. are we in this for practice or production and making money?
 
imagineero

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Um, this is the same guy that once suggested having his groundies use cordless circular saws to cut up brush.. I think there was something about handsaws and porridge in there too. So realistically, you might not be all that far off base. just saying.
Well mate, I suggested starting new groundies off using cordless reciprocating saws as being a safe way of starting new groundies with no chainsaw experience, so I could at least see if they get the concept of tension and compression. It worked out pretty well in the end, and it's not a bad way to start training new recruits if you have to be up in the tree and not on the ground showing guys how it's done. Even the specially gifted have a hard time hurting themselves with a reciprocating saw which they are holding with both hands.

I returned the favor of looking back over threads you've started, which only took a few minutes since it averaged out to 2 or 3 threads a year. Most of your threads seem to involve getting ripped off on cheap bucket trucks because you cant climb, looking for new groundies at short notice because you cant get anyone to work for you, wondering how a tree is planted, paranoia over whether your competition is stealing your lawn signs, and wondering if it's still fashionable to use a polesaw in a tree. Are you just becoming a dinosaur? Yes you are. Nice work ;-)

But I see you've completely failed to address any of the points i made in regards to riding the pick down, so none of that really matters...

is this like road rage?

Shaun
 
tree MDS

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Well mate, I suggested starting new groundies off using cordless reciprocating saws as being a safe way of starting new groundies with no chainsaw experience, so I could at least see if they get the concept of tension and compression. It worked out pretty well in the end, and it's not a bad way to start training new recruits if you have to be up in the tree and not on the ground showing guys how it's done. Even the specially gifted have a hard time hurting themselves with a reciprocating saw which they are holding with both hands.

I returned the favor of looking back over threads you've started, which only took a few minutes since it averaged out to 2 or 3 threads a year. Most of your threads seem to involve getting ripped off on cheap bucket trucks because you cant climb, looking for new groundies at short notice because you cant get anyone to work for you, wondering how a tree is planted, paranoia over whether your competition is stealing your lawn signs, and wondering if it's still fashionable to use a polesaw in a tree. Are you just becoming a dinosaur? Yes you are. Nice work ;-)

But I see you've completely failed to address any of the points i made in regards to riding the pick down, so none of that really matters...

is this like road rage?

Shaun
Crikey!! :msp_scared:

I was only trying to rile you up a little, mate!! I see it worked. lol.

How many days did you work on composing that rebuttal?? didn't mean for you to lose any sleep, or anything!! :laugh:
 
treeclimber101

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Crikey!! :msp_scared:

I was only trying to rile you up a little, mate!! I see it worked. lol.

How many days did you work on composing that rebuttal?? didn't mean for you to lose any sleep, or anything!! :laugh:
If you were A shrimp , that mother ####er just threw you on the Barby ! Man ouch that was a tough read LOL ! He did miss the completely obvious 3000 or so posts that you made drunk , described illicit drug use , many sleepless nights of drinking til dawn the whole 3 month chipper fiasco , and the famous goat humping incident of 2010 ! Or the whole Matt holey belly thing!
 
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tree MDS

tree MDS

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If you were A shrimp , that mother ####er just threw you on the Barby ! Man ouch that was a tough read LOL ! He did miss the completely obvious 3000 or so posts that you made drunk , described illicit drug use , many sleepless nights of drinking til dawn the whole 3 month chipper fiasco , and the famous goat humping incident of 2010 ! Or the whole Matt holey belly thing!
Sharpen much?
 
imagineero

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Awwwww man, Suckered again!

Thank #### it finally stopped raining today so I could get some work done. The cabin fever was getting so bad I was starting to take it out on inanimate objects around the house. Stupid coffee cup!

Shaun
 
treemandan

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....so Justin wasted no time making an ass of himself. It's too bad because he does have a ton of real world experience and could add to the conversation. Unfortunately he can't or won't do it with out adding all the "F-yous" in every post...
I haven't read all of this thread but what I have, I am really surprised that there is so much debate over "riding the load".
I assumed every climber who worked off a crane "had this in their tool box".
It might not be for every pick but there are many situations where it is the safest option.
What's the big deal? This is a practice that crane removal companies have been using for years (when its the safest method) we all took a sigh of relief when the ANSI regs caught up with common sense by recognizing the safety advantages to this method.
I want to know, for all the people who chimed in and say in one way or the other "I would never ride a pick "
What do you think could happen?
What is your concern for injury?
Well this is Assboristdotcom. But man what do you feed that guy anyway?

I have never been in a situation where I had to ride the load. Do you have any pics or video?
 
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treemandan

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Man this looks hideous , I mean it looks like someone got hurt , or everyone left for lunch , I mean that's some poor work there , you couldn't even stack the wood along the woods or something
Hideous is as hideous does. Now come on guys, if that's all yer getting paid to do then that's all yer gonna do. And who ever said that was the finished product? Maybe it is maybe it isn't but still...
 
TreeGuyHR

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Hideous is as hideous does. Now come on guys, if that's all yer getting paid to do then that's all yer gonna do. And who ever said that was the finished product? Maybe it is maybe it isn't but still...
Thanks for casting some doubt on the doubters. I was made to feel like meat on the hook, literally; maybe jerked up and down over and over while a couple guys here laughed, saying: "Look look! He's still moving a little! Haw Haw!

Since you seem to have a question in there:

The homeowner wanted the wood right where it is (closer to his firewood pile -- surely people here can understand that)

I had several consulting arborists agree with my risk mitigation strategy. Guys who pay for their own E & O insurance (my premium without a claim is $1,900 a yr, one overhead cost among many that I pay.

Maybe that was my problem "risk mitigation strategy" has way too many syllables compared to "kill the tree"'; one guy said "4 hrs tops", right, without having seen the tree, the site, or knowing what was in my contract or why.

The other allegations are too numerous to point out, but were all based on wrong assumptions or actually contradicted by the thread itself. Most telling was one guy saying that I had blown off the opinion of a more knowledgeable guy regarding crane work, when I hadn't -- in fact this guy offered advice but never gave it, having more fun bullying an d generally making a fool of himself. Bunch of other guys piled on obviously not having read the thread, just to take the backs of the ringleaders. 'Nuff said.

:msp_smile::msp_smile:Smile everyone, this is Arboristsite after all!:msp_smile::msp_smile:
 
MarquisTree

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Well this is Assboristdotcom. But man what do you feed that guy anyway?

I have never been in a situation where I had to ride the load. Do you have any pics or video?
"Have to ride a pick"...
You don't really have to do anything.
we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.

We don't have to use cranes. Climbers got trees down before anyone in our industry was using cranes, but they make our jobs much safer and more productive.

We don't have to use blocks and slings to butt hang wood, u can do the same thing with just rope....

My point being, "riding the load" was condemned years ago as the ultimate crane sin. At the time of condemnation friction cranes were still the norm and guys "riding the load" were just standing on an I beam or pallet with no fall protection or attachment at all.
With older friction cranes it was possible to free fall the winch, most lacked any of the fail safe features the modern hyd winches have today.
When you think about why "riding the pick" became such a sin you start to see how different what tree climbers do is.
It's just another tool in the box for safe tree removal.

If I see a good opportunity I will shoot some video.
I am going to have the camera out a lot, we just bought a LTM-1090-4.1 it should make for some good video. Who knows it might just flush out TV we all know how flustered pictures of shinny equipment makes him
 
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