Are chainsaws intentionally sold weak out-of-box? Q's on mods & chains

[redbonzrock65]

tl;dr- Which, if any, modifications are worth doing to an out-of-box chainsaw?
~~~~~~~~~~
I'm hoping to understand this a bit more, I learned about two general 'types' of what I can only describe as intentional-weakening of chainsaws (out-of-box) and want to learn more, specifically:

#1 - It seems that many (maybe a majority?) of new saws are being made in such a way that simple modifications are freeing-up a ton of power, for instance I'm thinking most of the 200t-->201t progression where everyone hates the 201, unless you sent it to brad sneller to get it modified in which case it out-performs the 200t...I've got a few saws and expect that if I opened all 3 up and expanded/bored their mufflers, gently ported the intake/exhaust ports on the carb, removed the limiter(s) on the carb/shaved the key on the crank to slightly advance the timing, I expect this'd make them all stronger- but would it be shortening their lives in a significant way? I'm seeing so many ways that people 'free up' power, seeing people like Reg Coates go over how weak regular saws feel after using ported ones (which, I guess, would be a whole level above what I'm talking about, right? I don't think the slight sandings of the intake/exhaust ports counts as a full/real porting does it?) it just makes it seem like something that'd be nice to learn down the line, so any&everything anyone can offer on this would be hugely appreciated

#2 - The chain on my 18", with the highest tooth//link ratio of all my saws/chains, I thought it was the most aggressive / strongest, just learned it's 'a safety chain' and in fact is weaker than the regular oregon 'skip chains' I have on my 14" & 10" saws (1 tooth every 3rd link), at any rate I was needing to get backup chains and have realized just how ignorant I was about chain-types, am still unsure if it's 'smart' for me to get the every-third-link oregon skip-chains or if I should consider others (also looking at bars, am plenty content with the bars on my rear-handled saws but the 10" Double-Guard oregon bar on my climbing-saw I'm not so sure about after seeing all the dime- and quarter-tipped bars, between varying weights / pitches / tips I'm just lost on why one would choose one over the other!

Thanks a ton for any advice or directions to learn more about these things, I used the Steve's Small Engine Saloon series to learn basic tuning but the second I google for anything beyond that it's immediately way over my head!!

(also am curious if people ever modify a right-side dog/spike onto a saw that's not OEM-fit for one? Am looking at my 18" poulan pro and wishing it had 2 sets of dogs (maybe they'll be needed once I get the 'safety chain' off this thing!!) but would have to rig it up myself, it 'looks simple' but would really love to hear that someone else has done similar before considering it myself!)
[PS I should mention I consider sharpening [stihl 2-in-1] frequently to be requisite, I don't use pre-made fuel but use 90&92oct eth-free with Stabil & syn.oil, & am very precise mixing it to 40:1! I was happy with how they ran once 'overhauled' and once I had new chains on - excepting my 18" - so it's pretty neat thinking there's unlocked power, just hoping it's not akin to trying to turbocharge a Kia!!!]

Many saws are sold tuned down, as in slowed down and you are instructed to take the shaw back to the shop after running for a week, or so many tanks of fuel. This is part of the break in process. Husqvarna does this on all their saws so they are not run wide open until the rings have set and cylinder worn in. When you take the saw to the shop as reccomended they are going to turn it up about 300 rpm and the saw will cut will like a starved beaver.

Safety chain ie. low kickback , is standard on all saws now due to litigation prevention at the corporate level. First thing you can do to make your saw cut better is put a pro chain on it. I use Bailey Pro chains on all my saws and have never had an issue with them.

 

[Dennis Gauge]

I think what the OP was talking about are mods to "wake up" saws, and it's something I've wondered myself. Take my Jonsered 2166 for example, any subject I find on it highly highly recommends taking some doohickey out of some schmegeggus to "wake it up."

This is not some simple post-sale breakin tuning.

Another example, I've heard loggers talk of doing things to Husky 372XPs and 395XPs to "wake them up" and then they take them out to the woods and use them in production. This is not just a "hot saw" thing for showing off. These guys use them to earn a living.

If these saws were capable of this out of the box with seemingly no detrimental effects, why didn't they come that way?

 

[Huskybill]

Both my new husky 385 Xp and 575 were dogs until I cut ten cords of firewood with each saw. They became totally different running saws.
The newer saws have tighter tolarences so more breakin time is needed,

 

[rarefish383]

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, I'm just bored. Just before the stay at home order came, I brought home 6 dump trailers of 20-30" Oak logs. I've been cutting and splitting Oak for 3 days. Just the thought of trying to get more power out of a 10" saw cracked me up, you need bigger saws. Skip chain on a 14" saw, you need bigger saws. I run full comp on everything up to my 45" bars. In reference to an other thread, I went out and counted how many of my saws had dogs on them. Out of 45-50 saws one 85CC gear drive, one 99CC Mac, One 100CC Super 1050, and two 95CC Power Products. The only purpose I see for dogs is to get more leverage on the saw pulling into a cut. Most saws under 50CC's I can bog down with my hands. Yes saws respond to tuning just like cars. But, if you are trying to tune, and run skip chain, to get a 30CC saw to run like a 50CC saw, you have the wrong tool for the job. You won't be happy till you get into 70CC saws. Tune your saws best you can, and get some bigger saws!

 

[redbonzrock65]

I think what the OP was talking about are mods to "wake up" saws, and it's something I've wondered myself. Take my Jonsered 2166 for example, any subject I find on it highly highly recommends taking some doohickey out of some schmegeggus to "wake it up."

This is not some simple post-sale breakin tuning.

Another example, I've heard loggers talk of doing things to Husky 372XPs and 395XPs to "wake them up" and then they take them out to the woods and use them in production. This is not just a "hot saw" thing for showing off. These guys use them to earn a living.

If these saws were capable of this out of the box with seemingly no detrimental effects, why didn't they come that way?

It depends on what they are doing. Some guys "open up" the exhaust by removing portions that they deem not essential which allows the saw to breathe easier, or install a dual port muffler cover like the Hyway brand which is similar to putting headers and free flowing exhaust on your hotrod versus stock exhaust. Some of the parts may have been installed by the manufacturer to protect them from litigation or to meet emission standards mandated by the Federal or State governments. Some guys resort to drilling additional holes in their muffler which accomplishes the same thing. Carbs can be tuned to take advantage of exhaust mods to provide more power. Be advised that any changes to your stock saw may void the manufacturers warranty however so check before making any changes or you may live to regret it if something goes wrong and your saw tanks.

 

[rarefish383]

It depends on what they are doing. Some guys "open up" the exhaust by removing portions that they deem not essential which allows the saw to breathe easier, or install a dual port muffler cover like the Hyway brand which is similar to putting headers and free flowing exhaust on your hotrod versus stock exhaust. Some of the parts may have been installed by the manufacturer to protect them from litigation or to meet emission standards mandated by the Federal or State governments. Some guys resort to drilling additional holes in their muffler which accomplishes the same thing. Carbs can be tuned to take advantage of exhaust mods to provide more power. Be advised that any changes to your stock saw may void the manufacturers warranty however so check before making any changes or you may live to regret it if something goes wrong and your saw tanks.

The warranty is a very valid point. I think Echo does a five year homeowner warranty now, don't they? I haven't bought a new Echo saw in 15 years or more, and I still love the ones I have. The little 1980 CS280E is a blast. I have brand new Echo string trimmers and blowers, and I'm happy with the way they run out of the box. I'd hate to think I voided the warranty opening the muffler up a little, even if it did wake it up.

 

[redbonzrock65]

The warranty is a very valid point. I think Echo does a five year homeowner warranty now, don't they? I haven't bought a new Echo saw in 15 years or more, and I still love the ones I have. The little 1980 CS280E is a blast. I have brand new Echo string trimmers and blowers, and I'm happy with the way they run out of the box. I'd hate to think I voided the warranty opening the muffler up a little, even if it did wake it up.

A lot of guys take the spark arrestor screens out too or bore out the catalytic converter but if you get caught cutting on public land without one, the fine will not be worth the extra power you got. If you tune them right they don't clog up and you can easily clean them if they are clogged instead of taking them out completely.

 

[Pioneer]

A lot of saws have choked mufflers, this prevents complete scavenging and a loss of power. This helps emissions however, by holding back some of the exhaust gasses in the cylinder you get an EGR effect. It also prevents more unburned fuel from going out the exhaust port, more emissions priority. Funny though how saws respond so well to muffler mods, it's like the porting was actually designed for much more free flowing mufflers.

 

[L34]

A mate of mine had 2x660s.(untouched)
He said 1 cut heaps better than the other.
So 1 was his main saw and the other was his backup.

 

[eye.heart.trees]

AWESOME am stoked so many contributions thanks!!!


Re Break-in's:

Many saws are sold tuned down, as in slowed down and you are instructed to take the shaw back to the shop after running for a week, or so many tanks of fuel. This is part of the break in process.

The newer saws have tighter tolarences so more breakin time is needed,

@Red - I only learned of the phenomena recently, but the mechanism behind it sounds like it'd make gentle break-in's valid protocol for most/all saws (or 2-strokes...would like to think "they'd ship them that way" but have heard some ridiculous, hundreds-hours break-in quotes)
@Husk - Interesting way to look at it, makes sense! At the same time though even older stuff can seem to really need it, was reading crazy long quotes for 660's (gah I think that's the one...not 'a Stihl guy'...the bigger, very popular Stihl powerhead) and that platform is pretty old isn't it?

to turn it up about 300 rpm

To be clear, you're meaning running a 300rpm *deficit*/below your max-spec RPM, then moving it up 300rpm to full (or 99.9% of max-spec RPM) after break-in, right?

First thing you can do to make your saw cut better is put a pro chain on it. I use Bailey Pro chains on all my saws and have never had an issue with them.

Will check into them as "most-aggressive chain possible" is what I want but can't quite figure out exactly what that is....so I just keep going through cheap TriLink chains because I get 2-packs for $15 & 18 (12" and 16" 2-packs at Walmart!) and after like 5-10 sharpenings change it out, am building-up good chains that "just need 1st 'heavy'/real sharpening" because I can't find/settle on something. I file my rakers very low, have messed-up and was making spaghetti-noodles they were so low (learned you most-certainly don't lower w/ power-tools LOL) but keep them low enough that I've gotta be wary not to 'bury'/bog-down/stall-out the powerhead (it's nice it requires/tolerates only minimal force which is great in-tree of course)

Have also thought "Stihl has thinner, and thinner must be better" (same powerhead-force, narrower cut-area...should move faster although user-consensus on that seems far from there), I mean for ground-saws / 50+cc units it's probably of no relevance but on 25cc powerheads the "power loss" to bar&chain is a far higher% for instance adding a 2" longer bar&chain is noticeable on a 25cc :/ So would love to know, for instance, what is the best chain Oregon makes for 12" & 16" in the 0.50" gauge format? Not saying I want/intend to stay Oregon it's just I understand their 'system'/chains-hierarchy to a degree so knowing "Oregon-equivalence" would help!

I think what the OP was talking about are mods to "wake up" saws, and it's something I've wondered myself.

This is not some simple post-sale breakin tuning.

This is not just a "hot saw" thing for showing off. These guys use them to earn a living.

I see the new unit break-in as separate entirely (and am glad I learned it now as my 32cc/16" isn't long for this world and its replacement will become my nicest saw / bought new)

You're right though and while I'm interested in all techniques to get 'a better saw experience', I had written my OP here in terms of manufacturers essentially doing "intentional choke-points" on their saws, the muffler is the quintessential example here, I'd wondered what saws would be like today if there were no EPA (and, if/how-often saws are being designed by the manufacturer to facilitate user-disabling of such EPA-mandated, saw-slowing additions)

If these saws were capable of this out of the box with seemingly no detrimental effects, why didn't they come that way?

EPA! Although I'll say Echo's seem unique here in that it seems (at least for some models) that they're shipped *lean*, if you'd built a great saw but it didn't pass EPA thresholds, you just choke-out / lean-out the fuel for the units and the user turns the fuel back up once they get it, an illegal move of course but practical (and fair/ethically-OK in almost all instances IMO but that's a fruitless road nobody convinces others' ethics online IME!!)

I've actually got a 'ridge' on the exhaust-port of my 25cc, speculated by people on ********* to be a casting-error as it's basically a "tab" blocking exhaust-portage....I'm getting another/backup powerhead of the same type so will be able to verify but am suspecting (hoping!) it's not a mis-cast but instead an intentional "easy port-expansion" feature it's as perfect as you could design such a feature!

At any rate, all of my saws benefited from "increasing throughput" by:
1 - opening-up airflow (modifying intakes w/ bigger filters/more surface area and sufficient case-openings for air induction),
2 - opening-up muffler (have ditched the gaskets on all my saws as well as they were precision-cut for the block's exhaust-port and the 2-bolt mount isn't so precise...), including central wall/baffle and removal of cat's material / full flow-through, re-seated w/ red or copper Permatex bead on outside-edge of block's port (thin bead/ensure no blockage!), then just
3 - tune carb to richen/fatten/increase fuel&oil flow, I think my saws averaged about 1/4-->1/3rd turns out but I didn't do everything at once....don't turn-out your H unless you've got a tach (I do although I tune by ear and only use it for checking I don't over-shoot High)

^That got all of my saws moving noticeably faster, and using canned fuel (lubed-up to a 40:1 at leanest) and always keeping sharp chains/lower rakers/clean filters, has left me satisfied w/ relatively sub-par gear

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, I'm just bored.

[omitted points Re how you can simply up-size]
You sound as-if you're doing most of your cutting on-ground... At any rate, at least for some like myself, the power//weight ratio of a climb-saw really does matter, I'm barely 140lbs lol so I certainly notice and use my 25cc/12" for everything I can, only using my 32cc/16" - which I like, don't get me wrong - only when 12" isn't enough. There's a reason Echo's cs2511 is as desirable an offering as it is, power//weight may not matter so much on the ground and may not matter for a 225lbs guy in the tree but it matters to lil fellers like me Will be going lithium when my 25cc dies, and an echo 355t when my 32cc goes (unless lithium has gotten to powering 16" climb-saws by that point, right now I've only seen 25cc-replacements)

A lot of saws have choked mufflers, this prevents complete scavenging and a loss of power. This helps emissions however, by holding back some of the exhaust gasses in the cylinder you get an EGR effect. It also prevents more unburned fuel from going out the exhaust port, more emissions priority. Funny though how saws respond so well to muffler mods, it's like the porting was actually designed for much more free flowing mufflers.

Yeah the muffler is the biggest reason I'd thought to post this, it's as-if it's almost intentional, like "okay this is how it's gotta be for EPA, and it's fine for homeowner use, but we're going to setup mufflers in such a way that if you want to let the block 'breathe 100.0%', you can simply open it up" lol!
Would no muffler be detrimental to power? Not intending to remove one am just curious Re whether there's any role for back-pressure in these engines or if any&all interference post-exhaust-port minimizes throughput&power, I've been approaching muff-mods as-if back pressure has 0 value, hoping that's the case or I may've over-done some!

 

[rarefish383]

AWESOME am stoked so many contributions thanks!!!


Re Break-in's:


@Red - I only learned of the phenomena recently, but the mechanism behind it sounds like it'd make gentle break-in's valid protocol for most/all saws (or 2-strokes...would like to think "they'd ship them that way" but have heard some ridiculous, hundreds-hours break-in quotes)
@Husk - Interesting way to look at it, makes sense! At the same time though even older stuff can seem to really need it, was reading crazy long quotes for 660's (gah I think that's the one...not 'a Stihl guy'...the bigger, very popular Stihl powerhead) and that platform is pretty old isn't it?


To be clear, you're meaning running a 300rpm *deficit*/below your max-spec RPM, then moving it up 300rpm to full (or 99.9% of max-spec RPM) after break-in, right?


Will check into them as "most-aggressive chain possible" is what I want but can't quite figure out exactly what that is....so I just keep going through cheap TriLink chains because I get 2-packs for $15 & 18 (12" and 16" 2-packs at Walmart!) and after like 5-10 sharpenings change it out, am building-up good chains that "just need 1st 'heavy'/real sharpening" because I can't find/settle on something. I file my rakers very low, have messed-up and was making spaghetti-noodles they were so low (learned you most-certainly don't lower w/ power-tools LOL) but keep them low enough that I've gotta be wary not to 'bury'/bog-down/stall-out the powerhead (it's nice it requires/tolerates only minimal force which is great in-tree of course)

Have also thought "Stihl has thinner, and thinner must be better" (same powerhead-force, narrower cut-area...should move faster although user-consensus on that seems far from there), I mean for ground-saws / 50+cc units it's probably of no relevance but on 25cc powerheads the "power loss" to bar&chain is a far higher% for instance adding a 2" longer bar&chain is noticeable on a 25cc :/ So would love to know, for instance, what is the best chain Oregon makes for 12" & 16" in the 0.50" gauge format? Not saying I want/intend to stay Oregon it's just I understand their 'system'/chains-hierarchy to a degree so knowing "Oregon-equivalence" would help!







I see the new unit break-in as separate entirely (and am glad I learned it now as my 32cc/16" isn't long for this world and its replacement will become my nicest saw / bought new)

You're right though and while I'm interested in all techniques to get 'a better saw experience', I had written my OP here in terms of manufacturers essentially doing "intentional choke-points" on their saws, the muffler is the quintessential example here, I'd wondered what saws would be like today if there were no EPA (and, if/how-often saws are being designed by the manufacturer to facilitate user-disabling of such EPA-mandated, saw-slowing additions)


EPA! Although I'll say Echo's seem unique here in that it seems (at least for some models) that they're shipped *lean*, if you'd built a great saw but it didn't pass EPA thresholds, you just choke-out / lean-out the fuel for the units and the user turns the fuel back up once they get it, an illegal move of course but practical (and fair/ethically-OK in almost all instances IMO but that's a fruitless road nobody convinces others' ethics online IME!!)

I've actually got a 'ridge' on the exhaust-port of my 25cc, speculated by people on ********* to be a casting-error as it's basically a "tab" blocking exhaust-portage....I'm getting another/backup powerhead of the same type so will be able to verify but am suspecting (hoping!) it's not a mis-cast but instead an intentional "easy port-expansion" feature it's as perfect as you could design such a feature!

At any rate, all of my saws benefited from "increasing throughput" by:
1 - opening-up airflow (modifying intakes w/ bigger filters/more surface area and sufficient case-openings for air induction),
2 - opening-up muffler (have ditched the gaskets on all my saws as well as they were precision-cut for the block's exhaust-port and the 2-bolt mount isn't so precise...), including central wall/baffle and removal of cat's material / full flow-through, re-seated w/ red or copper Permatex bead on outside-edge of block's port (thin bead/ensure no blockage!), then just
3 - tune carb to richen/fatten/increase fuel&oil flow, I think my saws averaged about 1/4-->1/3rd turns out but I didn't do everything at once....don't turn-out your H unless you've got a tach (I do although I tune by ear and only use it for checking I don't over-shoot High)

^That got all of my saws moving noticeably faster, and using canned fuel (lubed-up to a 40:1 at leanest) and always keeping sharp chains/lower rakers/clean filters, has left me satisfied w/ relatively sub-par gear


[omitted points Re how you can simply up-size]
You sound as-if you're doing most of your cutting on-ground... At any rate, at least for some like myself, the power//weight ratio of a climb-saw really does matter, I'm barely 140lbs lol so I certainly notice and use my 25cc/12" for everything I can, only using my 32cc/16" - which I like, don't get me wrong - only when 12" isn't enough. There's a reason Echo's cs2511 is as desirable an offering as it is, power//weight may not matter so much on the ground and may not matter for a 225lbs guy in the tree but it matters to lil fellers like me Will be going lithium when my 25cc dies, and an echo 355t when my 32cc goes (unless lithium has gotten to powering 16" climb-saws by that point, right now I've only seen 25cc-replacements)



Yeah the muffler is the biggest reason I'd thought to post this, it's as-if it's almost intentional, like "okay this is how it's gotta be for EPA, and it's fine for homeowner use, but we're going to setup mufflers in such a way that if you want to let the block 'breathe 100.0%', you can simply open it up" lol!
Would no muffler be detrimental to power? Not intending to remove one am just curious Re whether there's any role for back-pressure in these engines or if any&all interference post-exhaust-port minimizes throughput&power, I've been approaching muff-mods as-if back pressure has 0 value, hoping that's the case or I may've over-done some!

I understand your point. I do all of my cutting on the ground now, but I climbed for over 40 years. My first climbing saw was a Super EZ with a 16" bar, then for a few years used a Poulan XXV, my last climbing saw, just before I retired, was an MS170. I like the extra reach of a rear handle over the weight difference of a top handle. When I started climbing I was 5'10" and 180, and I could hold the Super EZ at arms length, Now I'm 64, 5'9", and 245, I can still hold an EZ at arms length, just not for long. I bought my first top handle since the XXV a couple months ago, an Echo 280E. I think it's the first sub 30CC saw I've ever owned. Been having a blast with it.