Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Bore and plunge are the same. You do it 90 degrees to the direction of the fell, so you're off to one side. Expect kickback. Only the most skilled can avoid kickback when plunging in with the tip of the bar.
Barber Chair question
- Thread starter smokechase II
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mike385
ArboristSite Operative
I have cut the way our forefathers have taught and I have barberchaired trees. I have bore cut with the teaching of a swede, you know what? IT HAPPENS! Make darn sure that you are out of the way of the stump. Isn't that what they tell you? I just cut a tulip poplar on fri. and barber chaired it, guess what? I don't care, buy timber in a ravine, and that is gonna happen. I don't care what tree it is, I am getting the hell away from the stump. Most of the poop of the falling world falls there.
mike
mike
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Never, ever cut off your holding wood, recipe for disaster. Make sure that your undercut is cleaned out and has no dutchman. People (Treespyder especially) keep talking about using dutchmen, makes me very annoyed. Dutchmen are strictly prohibited and an offence under the compensation act here. I will never tell an old west coast faller what to do because I have too much respect and am not a faller. If they use them, fine. People here are not west coast fallers (maybe 1 or 2), don't go there. Keep it simple, make two escape paths away in the direction where the potential slab won't get you. Practice on some little leaners if you are not sure. Chairs kill people, nothing to intellectualize, or theorize. My favorite is the chain at face hieght, 3/8 grade 70 min. with a load binder.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
Well there you go, sounds good to me. Dutchman used right is a huge plus for directional felling(like keeping a leaner off the highway). I've seen trees do everything but jump straight up. I cut Humboldt(who doesn't?). Face cut, cut the sapwood on each side(nip the corners), bore out from the hinge leaving a "holding post". Cut the holding post from barkside in. Tree falls like it has eyes on it(where you want it to fall). MOST of the time! Oh, and sweat bullets if you have any thought it might go wrong. That's why west coast fellers work six hour days. That and the fact they have lots of windshield time.
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
JP-some people here don't even know what a humbolt is. A while back I got in a talk with some eastern fellows here that never use it, according to them the mills don't like them? Where I was working today (climbing to windfirm) the show was ugly. Big red cedar snags all over, marms, multistems with leaners into them, etc.. Every time I see what fallers have to cut I have more respect, all the bad is below me when I cut, for them it is all over head. Up here on the Queen Charlotte Islands, north coast of B.C., 40 miles south of Alaska.
Freakingstang
Doctor Freakinstein
smokechase II said:
It may have been too thick of a hinge on the first tree, but the 2nd, I shortened up the holding wood. I would say it was around two inches on the 1st tree and about 1 inch on the 2nd. The ash started to move, then barbered. The cherry didn't move before it barbered. Sorry, no pics. Wood has been cut and stump was cut flush on the ground.
When I do my notch, bore and back cut. I don't make my back cut all the way through. I'll pull the saw out with about 2" or so of holding wood (away from hinge holding wood)(depends on tree size) and then cut from the backside of the bore cut into the remaining bore. I like this as I have more control and an easier escape path.
What is a dutchman? I haven't heard the term, but then again, I know other ways, just not what they are called. Would a humbolt notch have been better in a possible chair situation?
Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions,
Steve
Steve, a dutchman is where one or both of the saw cuts for the face or notch extend past the intersection where they meet. In the situation you are talking about, you would want to avoid that because it can cause a barberchair.
To be sure we are on the same track, the talk about holding wood thickness is the horizontal thickness or width.
There are reasons to use a humbolt or not, but as far as b.chairs are concerned it makes no difference. If it is a heavy leaner and your face has a 90 deg. opening the tree will be almost on the ground by the time the face closes.
One inch may well be too thick of a hinge if it is the full width of the stump.
To be sure we are on the same track, the talk about holding wood thickness is the horizontal thickness or width.
There are reasons to use a humbolt or not, but as far as b.chairs are concerned it makes no difference. If it is a heavy leaner and your face has a 90 deg. opening the tree will be almost on the ground by the time the face closes.
One inch may well be too thick of a hinge if it is the full width of the stump.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
barber chair questions
Freakingstang:
"was around two inches on the 1st tree and about 1 inch on the 2nd. The ash started to move, then barbered. The cherry didn't move before it barbered."
Your first tree could have been from a thin Dutchman kerf closing quickly. But not your second. I've had perhaps too much confidence in the plunge back-cut to avoid a barber chair. After listening on this site I'm making sure I do a plunge face bore from now on. I believe one should consider that cut for both the plunge or triangle cut.
Among the primary cause of barber chairs that are listed under various sources:
1) Dutchman,
2) Shallow and or narrow face,
3) Face cut ‘matching up’ with a split in tree,
4) Back cut not at correct height to face,
5) Driving Wedges too hard or unnecessary wedging,
6) Wind,
7) Pulling a tree,
8) Improper hinge wood width,
9) Failing to nip corners or bore out center of hinge,
10) Not placing binders,
11) Defect in tree,
12) One tree leaning into or being fell into another, (look, that 2nd tree
could still cause you plenty of problems if it chairs),
13)
Barber chair avoidance includes many options:
a) Consider a deep/high face and make sure no Dutchman,
b) Consider a face bore in the center holding wood,
c) Consider one of two techniques on the back-cut|
First; bore(plunge the back/bring it forward to the desired holding wood)
then toward the back, then chase a 3"-5" strap.
Second; triangle the back, making sure to nip the holding wood at the
corners, then in from the back with a sharp saw, not letting up.
d) Wrapping the tree to stop the split, best to go with two, above head high
e) Consider cutting the corner holding wood even with the plunge,
f) Don't wedge a leaner that you are falling with the lean at all,
g) Don't drive wedges hard on trees/species that you know have a chair
tendency without having done a face bore or holding wood corner nip.
h) Get your holding wood right for that particular trees size/weight/lean(s)/
limbs/wind/defect(s)/dryness and other variables.
i) Don't fall certain trees with a wind that could be that lever that enhances
the splitting potential,
j) Don't let Jim/Bob pull real hard on that line from the tree top to the
back of his pick-up.
k) Make sure that a split in a tree doesn't match up with face where the
face comes up a couple inches short and parallel to that split.
l)
From Tree Sling'r, paraphrased: My hinge wood was 1 inch wide … the reason this tree barber chaired; it was a Doug Fir combined with wedging to counter a lean. Doug Fir; … many times your hinge needs to be narrower than a pine or white fir. If I would have expected a barber chair I would have bored a little bit of wood out from the middle of the tree through the face cut and would also have made a deeper undercut.
Doug fir is … so tough.
Sooooo. Know what you’re cutting and consider that face bore.
From John Ellison in Arkansas, paraphrased: The weirdest one was a spruce in Alaska. It never had a saw cut in it … the hook tender had just rigged a lift tree. It was not topped. Two 11" blocks, two chokers and two sections of haywire were hanging from the tree. He had just taken off the belt and spurs … we heard a noise and the tree barber chaired from some fault inside starting at 5 feet. No wind at all.
Sooooo. Don’t believe that OSHA web site that says that barber chairs occur during just the latter part of the fall.
From Jim in the Mid-west, paraphrased: I had a poplar split a week ago or so,
had a good 30 degree lean on it. I fell it with the lean, bore cut the back,
maybe 1" wide hinge wood, still split.
Sooooo. Don’t depend on just that back bore, it can make for a precise hinge, but the continuity of that hinge needs to be broken up.
What did I forget or misstate?
Freakingstang:
"was around two inches on the 1st tree and about 1 inch on the 2nd. The ash started to move, then barbered. The cherry didn't move before it barbered."
Your first tree could have been from a thin Dutchman kerf closing quickly. But not your second. I've had perhaps too much confidence in the plunge back-cut to avoid a barber chair. After listening on this site I'm making sure I do a plunge face bore from now on. I believe one should consider that cut for both the plunge or triangle cut.
Among the primary cause of barber chairs that are listed under various sources:
1) Dutchman,
2) Shallow and or narrow face,
3) Face cut ‘matching up’ with a split in tree,
4) Back cut not at correct height to face,
5) Driving Wedges too hard or unnecessary wedging,
6) Wind,
7) Pulling a tree,
8) Improper hinge wood width,
9) Failing to nip corners or bore out center of hinge,
10) Not placing binders,
11) Defect in tree,
12) One tree leaning into or being fell into another, (look, that 2nd tree
could still cause you plenty of problems if it chairs),
13)
Barber chair avoidance includes many options:
a) Consider a deep/high face and make sure no Dutchman,
b) Consider a face bore in the center holding wood,
c) Consider one of two techniques on the back-cut|
First; bore(plunge the back/bring it forward to the desired holding wood)
then toward the back, then chase a 3"-5" strap.
Second; triangle the back, making sure to nip the holding wood at the
corners, then in from the back with a sharp saw, not letting up.
d) Wrapping the tree to stop the split, best to go with two, above head high
e) Consider cutting the corner holding wood even with the plunge,
f) Don't wedge a leaner that you are falling with the lean at all,
g) Don't drive wedges hard on trees/species that you know have a chair
tendency without having done a face bore or holding wood corner nip.
h) Get your holding wood right for that particular trees size/weight/lean(s)/
limbs/wind/defect(s)/dryness and other variables.
i) Don't fall certain trees with a wind that could be that lever that enhances
the splitting potential,
j) Don't let Jim/Bob pull real hard on that line from the tree top to the
back of his pick-up.
k) Make sure that a split in a tree doesn't match up with face where the
face comes up a couple inches short and parallel to that split.
l)
From Tree Sling'r, paraphrased: My hinge wood was 1 inch wide … the reason this tree barber chaired; it was a Doug Fir combined with wedging to counter a lean. Doug Fir; … many times your hinge needs to be narrower than a pine or white fir. If I would have expected a barber chair I would have bored a little bit of wood out from the middle of the tree through the face cut and would also have made a deeper undercut.
Doug fir is … so tough.
Sooooo. Know what you’re cutting and consider that face bore.
From John Ellison in Arkansas, paraphrased: The weirdest one was a spruce in Alaska. It never had a saw cut in it … the hook tender had just rigged a lift tree. It was not topped. Two 11" blocks, two chokers and two sections of haywire were hanging from the tree. He had just taken off the belt and spurs … we heard a noise and the tree barber chaired from some fault inside starting at 5 feet. No wind at all.
Sooooo. Don’t believe that OSHA web site that says that barber chairs occur during just the latter part of the fall.
From Jim in the Mid-west, paraphrased: I had a poplar split a week ago or so,
had a good 30 degree lean on it. I fell it with the lean, bore cut the back,
maybe 1" wide hinge wood, still split.
Sooooo. Don’t depend on just that back bore, it can make for a precise hinge, but the continuity of that hinge needs to be broken up.
What did I forget or misstate?
wradman
ArboristSite Operative
barberchair question
I would have to say hemlock and cedar are high risk for chairs
not much problem with pine,fir,balsam etc.
anytime you make a bad cut there is a risk of a barberchair,especially when you are new double check your undercut is clean ,don't be afraid to check your holding wood on the other side of the tree so you don't cut it off, first take your time the speed will come later.
I would have to say hemlock and cedar are high risk for chairs
not much problem with pine,fir,balsam etc.
anytime you make a bad cut there is a risk of a barberchair,especially when you are new double check your undercut is clean ,don't be afraid to check your holding wood on the other side of the tree so you don't cut it off, first take your time the speed will come later.
clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Wrad, if you really wanna see something chair, try a cottonwood, good tips, you are a faller, most here are arborists or weekend warriors, they only fall a bit, not tree after tree after tree. Really no excuse for an unclean, bad undercut when you are falling a butt log or one or two trees a day.
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
I don't recall ever having a barberchair.
John
John
wradman
ArboristSite Operative
barberchair
when i saw your comment dont' recall ever having a barberchair i thiought this guy hasn't been in the woods much i see the picture lololol good for you , you are cool you rock come sledding with me
when i saw your comment dont' recall ever having a barberchair i thiought this guy hasn't been in the woods much i see the picture lololol good for you , you are cool you rock come sledding with me
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
wradman said:
Glad you liked the play on words and the picture.
Anyway, at the risk of looking like a cull, I try to share my mistakes and victories with others so that a real world story can be depicted.
The above was a barber chair looking for a barber. I was falling in high winds, (not too bright), the centre was dozy, bar was too short and I was trying to fall it away from it's natural lean.
A big gust of wind kinda flung it off the stump.:jawdrop:
So here is how I saved some wood fibre and created a safe work situation.
John
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
This other time I had a few other barberchairs before I knew how to file.
John
John
Gypo Logger
Timber Baron
This is why it's extremely important to hire a licenced arborist as oposed to a hack artist. This tree company was a subsidiary of Lambert Logging called Rip Torn.
John
John
wradman
ArboristSite Operative
chair
there is one problem you are using that tiny little saw to cut down big wood, that's gotta be a real fight in itself. picture #2 was that a windstorm or what happenned there.
there is one problem you are using that tiny little saw to cut down big wood, that's gotta be a real fight in itself. picture #2 was that a windstorm or what happenned there.
1I'dJak
ArboristSite Operative
i noticed someone (clearance i think) mentioned the triangle method backcut... what's that? Worst barberchair i had was on an 24' alder... it barberchaired on me and apparently i sprang backwards just like a cat cuz next thing you know i was lying on my back and amazing distance from the tree with my 365 still in my hand...
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
triangle backcut
The oldest cutting method of avoiding a barber chair is the triangle back cut; it dates from the cross cut days.
Put in your face, your back cut is in three cuts.
The first two come forward at about a 45 degree angle pointing in.
They go through actually into the undercut just near the outer edge of the hinge, usually by 1-3", depending on the size of the tree.
So the holding wood is "nipped at both corners". The first two portions of the back cut form a triangle.
This is done on heavy leaners that you are dropping with or very close to the lean.
Then, with a sharp saw, properly tuned, full tank, you power through that baby and get 'er done. It wasn't uncommon to hear old school loggers remark that you'd be a fool to leave the trees once it starts splitting. Got to see that cut all the way through or you're in trouble sonny boy.
Extremely important that the holding wood gets nipped at both corners.
No wedging, of course on a heavy leaner.
Most would recommend the boring back-cut in preference. One caveat I'd suggest is that you break up the continuity of the hinge. That could be with nipping the corners again or a face center bore prior to back cut. I'm saying that as I've read several accounts here on arborsite that are of plunge back-cutters that did not do that and had barber chairs. Seems to be more likely in ash.
I've changed my procedure because of what I've read here.
I'm actually doing a face center bore first, then face cut, then corner nip, then bore back. Based on a posts from John Ellison, and others.
The oldest cutting method of avoiding a barber chair is the triangle back cut; it dates from the cross cut days.
Put in your face, your back cut is in three cuts.
The first two come forward at about a 45 degree angle pointing in.
They go through actually into the undercut just near the outer edge of the hinge, usually by 1-3", depending on the size of the tree.
So the holding wood is "nipped at both corners". The first two portions of the back cut form a triangle.
This is done on heavy leaners that you are dropping with or very close to the lean.
Then, with a sharp saw, properly tuned, full tank, you power through that baby and get 'er done. It wasn't uncommon to hear old school loggers remark that you'd be a fool to leave the trees once it starts splitting. Got to see that cut all the way through or you're in trouble sonny boy.
Extremely important that the holding wood gets nipped at both corners.
No wedging, of course on a heavy leaner.
Most would recommend the boring back-cut in preference. One caveat I'd suggest is that you break up the continuity of the hinge. That could be with nipping the corners again or a face center bore prior to back cut. I'm saying that as I've read several accounts here on arborsite that are of plunge back-cutters that did not do that and had barber chairs. Seems to be more likely in ash.
I've changed my procedure because of what I've read here.
I'm actually doing a face center bore first, then face cut, then corner nip, then bore back. Based on a posts from John Ellison, and others.
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