Becoming and Arborist

[oldirty]

The major obstacle to that approach, really shows its face when you take your model of an ideal arborist, and remove them from their "safety net" for their philosophy - an environment to climb. An equally big obstacle is below in bold print at the end.

Take your model arborists, and drop them into an environment where there are no trees to climb, but of great enough value to need arboriculture. If therefore their climbing skills are irrelevant and cannot be used, your logic dictates that they are no longer arborists.

The important part about arboriculture, is that arboriculture exists even if climbing gear was not existent. Arboriculture exists even if someone does not have a hand pruning saw.

So the "arena" among arborists is not climbing at all, but the "arena" is the presence of trees.

It would be equally foolish if I tried to claim that because some arborists spent 100% of their time in trees, and none planting, that they were not arborists.

The important part, is do they understand how to plant trees. Do they know their aboriculture or not? If they know how to plant, they still can prune and climb trees, but manage and oversee the planting.

There may be an even greater obstacle to your presentation of opinion...

If you think that a Certified Arborist cannot manage from the ground, like for a city like Los Angeles or Boston, without him or her being a skilled climber, there is a logic dilemna.

So that CA can't manage other CAs, but the upper city management with no hort experience can hire and manage a climbing CA?

And in that, I disagree with you by giving more credit to a managing CA, than I would do a non-horticultural city management professional. The way I see it, is if another manager can supercede a climbing arborist and the work can be done right, then a managing CA with expert tree knowledge can even more effectively manage CAs and climbers.

To think otherwise, we cut off our leg of logic, by neccessitating that every level of city management above the urban forester, must be a climbing CA - all the way to the mayor.

do you climb?

 

[bigshea13]

Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".


ive gotta disagree with ya.
thats like saying that being able to perform cpr is an optional skill for a doctor.
its one thing to know what needs to be done and its another to be able to do it; for most of the world , arborists are directly linked to the saw. most people think that arborists should be able t tackle most any tree care task, including the act of prunning or removing.
most of my work has been in ny state so maybe im nieve to the other goings on round the world . ive been involved in multiple aspects of the tree industry. from maple syrup to danger tree removal aroound kv lines ive got a decent feel for things. from what i can see well over half of the industry requires the use of a saw. in the woods, in the mills,in back yards and in the air the saw has become an icon in every end of the industry. there really is no way around it.
as far as the climbing goes....@#!$%$% do you mean to tell me that there are really "arborists" out there that dont climb..or dont have to where they are. if thats the case id like to know how they diagnose a problem at the top of a tree in the back yard 70 feet up. whats he do then?...wait till the problem makes its way farther down so he can see it better...sub it out? maybe a really good pair of binocs will do it? thats rediculous.
people have false sense of security when it comes to stuff like this.someone comes to the door to work and they are "certified" but in actuality they just passed a written test. arborist that dont climb and cant use a saw effectively are no more than glorified gardeners. :

 

[clearance]

recently contacted ISA about reupping my arborist certification. They have a drive going for new members, a real, inexpensive price. Then I beleive the yearly membership is based on a percentage of the company gross. Does anyone know the details? Not cheap anymore ?

I don't think it costs that much, and not a percentage, it will be a flat fee. Quantity, not quality, thats the road they are on.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".


ive gotta disagree with ya.
thats like saying that being able to perform cpr is an optional skill for a doctor.

Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused.

Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.

For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.

In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.

A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.

For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.

What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.

Greatly fail to understand management.

The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.

I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).

 

[oldirty]

:arborist that dont climb and cant use a saw effectively are no more than glorified gardeners. :

and thats the truth right there.

i dont get why you would want to be an arborist if you dont want to be in the tree.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

I just searched the ISA website for tree care companys throughout Ga. on their search button. Is Batlett Tree & some lanscaper the only ones they have listed. You had better check to see if your company is listed under, " search for local services ". Let me know what you find as listed services.

 

[clearance]

Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused.

Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.

For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.

In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.

A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.

For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.

What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.

Greatly fail to understand management.

The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.

M.D., should arborsits who don't climb, that have gained thier knowledge from books, be telling tree guys how to climb and how to cut down trees, like around powerlines, for example? I have asked you this, can you please answer.

 

[oldirty]

Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused.

Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.

For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.

In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.

A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.

For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.

What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.

Greatly fail to understand management.

The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.

I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).

maybe i am jaded mario but what this sounds like is the age old line "those who can, do . those who cant, teach" or end up managing.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

When I took the exam there was a Master Gardner lady present. She said she was taking the exam to learn more about trees. She had no intentions of working in this field. Might have been 70 yrs. old.

 

[clearance]

When I took the exam there was a Master Gardner lady present. She said she was taking the exam to learn more about trees. She had no intentions of working in this field. Might have been 70 yrs. old.

Thats cool, one is never to old to stop learning. Why is it that some who are ISA arborists in thier 20s figure they know it all?

Old Chip, about your question for the listing of arborists in Ga, you probably have to pay for that advertising, its all about the money, as others have said.

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

Clearance; your probably 100 percent with your observation.

 

[ropensaddle]

This is a subject that has bothered me for many years,
It should be a company wanting an arborist looks at their
senior climber and offers schooling to him. To manage tree
men should require a minimum of 20 years climbing to give
old timers something to look forward to. There are many
other areas managers can go to run things with respect,
climbing is not one of them. I have stated that I have
been studying to pass certification,I also plan to get
a bs in horticulture and have climbed well over twenty
years. This takeover by college boys started many years
before and I was ticked about it like some here. I finally
have channeled it to desire! I have to admit some of the
book studies are difficult and time consuming,I was
not born with a silver spoon and have to pay for my
books and materials. I will get certification and I plan
to manage my or another business and promote men
already their and especially climbers if they will study
and pass tests!

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

You can take CEU'S online in order to keep your arborist certification. Maybe not the actual test.

 

[lxt]

M.D., what you state is the problem with America, too many chiefs not enough Indians, I would think its hard to manage someone about something you know nothing about( regarding climbing).

funny how on the employment section in this forum, I always see CLIMBERS needed & ISA cert. is mentioned in the requirements as helpful but not neccessary!!!!! MMMMmmmm how about a Surgeon that doesnt perform surgery & never did, by your statement all one has to do is just be part of the field (or arena) & they can hold the credential!!

BTW, I know a little bit about management, the analogies you use regarding landscapers & irrigation is an absurd twist as too what we are even talking about, I manage my biz every day, my men every day, etc..etc... & Im not a certified business agent!! but hey according to you...I manage therefore I must be!! (Im in the arena)

I have to agree with one of the previous posts about, if you dont climb,or use a chainsaw, heck even trim out of a bucket!! you are a gardener!!! LOL. I like that!.....non-climbing, no bucket trimming, cant use a saw GARDENER. If the general public new this they would laugh at you & consider that cert. a farse!!!

LXT...............

 

[underwor]

Greatly fail to understand management.

The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.

I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).

I have worked for Davey (2 years), run a tree care company (12 years), worked as a arborist (climbing) for a university and managed regular and sports turf for the same university (8 years). I prefer to work for others now as I realize that although I have 40 years experience (climbing, etc.) and about 18 years formal education, plus countless seminars and trade shows, I am not a manager. I can explain most concepts fairly well, but I am not good at telling someone else to do it. In my business I tried to do too much of the work myself. I should have hired a salesman, an accountant, another good climber and stayed on the ground a little more to manage things.

I have worked for excellent managers who knew nothing about arboriculture, but they knew who to go to to get the job done. The grounds superintendent that I worked for knew nothing about trees, but he knew enough to hire me!! It would have been better, when we argued a finer point of equipment procurement, pruning or planting, if he had had a general knowledge base, such as the ISA CA test provides, but it was not necessary for his position.

At a meeting of educators at the Morton Arboretum a few years back, we heard presentations from people in utility, municipal and commercial arboriculture. Almost to a man they said they did not want us turning out people "proficient" in arboriculture, they wanted people with a "good basic knowledge". Each ran his business a little different and wanted to fine tune the new arborist to fit his business plan and crew structure. While everyone of these people had worked in the field, it had been many years before. They recognized that things changed and that the new workers would bring in new ideas to be tried and evaluated. The general managers had the job of sorting the grain from the chaff, based on the issues of safety, production and the bottom line, with input from others within the organization. Field management and crew management were at other levels in the business and each built upon the others. All were engaged in the field of arboriculture and equally dedicated to the care of trees.

The 80 year old who took classes with me was not a climbing arborist, but she cared for a collection of bonsai trees worth more than I have made in my lifetime climbing.

 

[D Mc]

I would like to back MD Vaden here on his definition of what an arborist is in today's world. When I first started tree work we called ourselves "arborists" to differentiate us from loggers. Because if you mentioned trees and chain saws, everyone automatically thought you were a logger. At that stage, tree science and its findings was still fairly new and unproven. That's not true any more. The wealth of information available for the eager to learn individual is endless. I'm probably one of the best climbers on the face of the earth (like all the rest of you climbers out there) but I don't call myself an arborist. I call myself a tree climber specialist. Because that is what I do. I tried running a company for awhile and found the problems associated with management were beyond my scope. I know lots of botanical names and basic tree biology and entomology but not at the depth that is currently required for a true understanding of the arboriculture field.

My wife, who passed her certification test this last year, is very good at all the currently required aspects of arboriculture. Her base of knowledge far surpasses mine and she has only been doing this for 20 years! And whereas I have taught her to do rudimentary climbing she is not planning on butt-hitching a big pine down over someone's house. And she wouldn't think of telling me how to do it. But the fact is that she can answer any question the homeowner may have while I am up a tree, describing what is going to be done and how it is going to be done. This is a tremendous benefit to our company utilizing both our fields of expertise. This is how it should work in the real world. I know it doesn't.

Some times people are just jerks. It isn't the certification, job description, uniform, chainsaw that made them that way. Try not to condemn a whole process because some practitioners don't live up to your expectations.

D Mc

 

[clearance]

underwor, D Mc, treeseer, etc, you guys just don't get it, you guys are climbers, that is a big deal, you know of what you speak. One of you is worth a thousand mutts when it comes to telling people how to do treework. I will listen to your ideas on how to climb and cut down trees, because YOU GUYS HAVE DONE IT. Do I have to draw you a picture, what is it you don't get?

LXT, you are right about the too many chiefs, not only that, the wrong kinds of chiefs, question, how many chiefs got made chiefs that were not Indians to begin with?, and so it is, its like explaining something to a drunk.

 

[underwor]

Yes I have been a climber, but I would not begin to know how to take down a large western conifer in a confined space or do clearance pruning. In that field, I know next to nothing. In fact I may be more dangerous because I think I know a little about it. I, like a very knowledgeable non-climbing arborist, am going to consult with one of you experts in those fields. I know the tree needs worked on, I may know the reason it needs worked on, I may know what permits are needed, I may know how to explain it to the local professionals (lawyers, doctors, environmental reactionaries, but I do not begin to know how to get into that tree or do the work safely and efficiently. If I had quit climbing in 1970, I would be well qualified to discuss climbing on manila hemp rope, using a double bowline on a bight saddle, making flush cuts and spraying with DDT and Lead Arsenate while hanging suspended at 50', but that would not qualify me to direct you or your crews in this day and age. I would be qualified to hire you to do the work based on my recommendations for the outcome desired as regards the health of the tree. Hopefully I would still be smart enough to take your recommendations on my recommendations into account in making the final decisions.

We all have special skills, none of us have all of them. The business world, like the natural world is an system in which every piece must work together for the end result to be a long and prosperous life. All of these systems evolve and mutate. Those who can change with them will do well.

 

[clearance]

C'mon Bob. You could do it, them conifers are straight up, straight down, probably a lot easier than some of those spreading monsters you guys have down there. I have never cut down something thats as wide as it is tall, but I would give it my best shot. And because you have climbed, and have a lot of experience, although I don't know you, I cannot see you asking people to climb stone cold dead trees. I just can't. Don't sell yourself short, you would get respect here.

 

[lxt]

Bob I agree with clearance, just by your post I respect you!! Its the one bad apple that rottens the bunch, In the CA field there are many, We need to change this. Guys like you at least tried it & interestingly enough claim to not be all that good? Im thinking you are just humble & better than you say!!

If more were like you then I wouldnt have a problem with em!! props to ya!!


LXT..............