Biodegradable bar oil...... anybody use it?
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Old Monkey
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Tree Machine said:
I love you too man!!
I have a 15 month old daughter who means the world to me. Your argument is certainly something to ponder.
Tree Machine
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I am having to pour it. That makes it consequential. If YOU had to pour it, it's pourability properties are something you not only personally have to work with, but with your own hands.
I would ask you to explain lobbing an uninformed judgement at this effort.
It's pourability and miscibility have alot to do with it. These are the 'properties' of the compound we call Tack. There are other properties we should also explore, properties that will affect the user directly. It may affect his family, employees, his property and the property of others.
Why is this physical property inconsequential? If we are to put a sample of tack into the hands of everyone who wants to try it, they will want to know every inconsequential property, quality, every behavior, all toxic disclosures and safety data. Glen, when you're dealing with the public and putting weird substances in their hands and homes, you have to have your lawyer draw up this document called <i>informed consent.</i>.
I would ask you to explain lobbing an uninformed judgement at this effort.
It's pourability and miscibility have alot to do with it. These are the 'properties' of the compound we call Tack. There are other properties we should also explore, properties that will affect the user directly. It may affect his family, employees, his property and the property of others.
Why is this physical property inconsequential? If we are to put a sample of tack into the hands of everyone who wants to try it, they will want to know every inconsequential property, quality, every behavior, all toxic disclosures and safety data. Glen, when you're dealing with the public and putting weird substances in their hands and homes, you have to have your lawyer draw up this document called <i>informed consent.</i>.
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Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Mono viejo, what's your little 15 month-old girl's name?
If I were to obtain a quantity of the material to modify veggie oil for use as a bar/chain lube, you bet the way it pours would be a factor for me. But I dang sure wouldn't stick it in the freezer, or even the fridge, first. It just stands to reason that if I want it to mix as quickly and easily as it can, that I'll perform the act with both the materials at as warm a temperature as I can reasonably get them.
Glen
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
And practically speaking, what if you were trying to mix the stuff in the woods on a cold day? We are trying to assesss the practical application of this stuff. That means considering it's use from a real-life perspective.
Warm-weather mixing, trust me, will be covered. The fact that it's late Winter right now encourages me to test the stuff in the weather of the moment, and assimilate knowledge of it's characteristics. If we don't do this, the inevitable question will come up "how does this stuff behave in cold weather?" Without the empirical data, the only answer we could offer is heresay, or a blatant guess.
Don't direct us toward bad research. We're honestly trying to give this stuff an objective trial. How do you see yourself contributing to the effort, Glen? You wanna do the solubility tests?
Warm-weather mixing, trust me, will be covered. The fact that it's late Winter right now encourages me to test the stuff in the weather of the moment, and assimilate knowledge of it's characteristics. If we don't do this, the inevitable question will come up "how does this stuff behave in cold weather?" Without the empirical data, the only answer we could offer is heresay, or a blatant guess.
Don't direct us toward bad research. We're honestly trying to give this stuff an objective trial. How do you see yourself contributing to the effort, Glen? You wanna do the solubility tests?
Tree Machine
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My life has been enriched.glens said:
You're not 'everybody'.glens said:
Tree Machine
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Do you want to do the solubility tests?
There's an informed consent, where I inform you about the stuff, and you consent to receive it and follow a certain protocol testing it. Are you interested in doing just the solubility portion of it? I don't want to ask unreasonably of you.
If yes, we'll continue with the information part, as we have been. Then we will spell out a simple protocol, an number of specific ways in which to test it. this gives us a baseline, and anyone trying the same thing, should be getting the same result. fair enough?
Are you interested in performing the solubility tests, Glen?
There's an informed consent, where I inform you about the stuff, and you consent to receive it and follow a certain protocol testing it. Are you interested in doing just the solubility portion of it? I don't want to ask unreasonably of you.
If yes, we'll continue with the information part, as we have been. Then we will spell out a simple protocol, an number of specific ways in which to test it. this gives us a baseline, and anyone trying the same thing, should be getting the same result. fair enough?
Are you interested in performing the solubility tests, Glen?
I'm sorry Jim. If I wanted to use veggie oil I'm sure I'd get some of the tackifier from those folks and mix it up. I don't envision anything magical going on with the mixture process or any detrimental effects from using it.
Glen
Glen
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh?
Tree Machine
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Unless I missed something, you don't even <i>have</i> a sample of the Tack, yet you're claiming
I suppose that mebbe you really ARE clairvoyant, and I'm not doubting you. I would just like to know if your 'envisionment' has any hands-on experience with the Tack?
Would you like to do the solubility tests? It's a good way to verify what you state here as 'belief'. If you believe there are no "detrimental effects from using it", then step up and agree to follow a simple, scientific protocol. I commit to sending you a free sample of Tack.
For the sake of this project, I'm going to point out that you can not possibly state with correctness or any accuracy that there are no detrimental effects from using it, just because you envision it.
I suppose that mebbe you really ARE clairvoyant, and I'm not doubting you. I would just like to know if your 'envisionment' has any hands-on experience with the Tack?
Would you like to do the solubility tests? It's a good way to verify what you state here as 'belief'. If you believe there are no "detrimental effects from using it", then step up and agree to follow a simple, scientific protocol. I commit to sending you a free sample of Tack.
Stumper
One Man Band
Errr....Jim, I think that you should test to your heart's content . Report freely of your findings for those of us who are curious. In Glen's defense-- why should anyone envision a problem with the tackifier? It is designed to help vegetable based lubricants stay in place(reduce sling off) on rotating systems. Petroleum based bar and chain lubricants utilize a tackifier for the same purpose. It seems very reasonable to expect this stuff to work just fine. I can't say I really care about low temperature flow rates of the additive itself. I don't really care too much about solubility either. The important issues in my opinion are, Miscability, Pumpability of the mixed lubricants and quantity of lubricant retained on bar rails and drivelinks at the end of the chain cycle. Obviously, if the tackifier made the vegetable oil lose lubricity that would be a problem but I think that is pretty far fetched since it is made to enhance lubricant performance in industrial applications. :angel:
Tree Machine
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I'm trying to be objective. I could state that I hate tack, but informationally, how valuable is that to the rest of us? I'm attempting to let the Tackifier do it's own talking.
By the way, we're not arguing. Maybe negotiating, possibly haggling. You're saying your opinion is good enough for this product to be all right, I question your opinion, wonder if it's based on anything solid; I'm just asking questions.
I don't see a willingness from you to involve yourself in the testing of the product. We've just spent about the last 6 pages discussing Tack. We can ask some basic questions about the stuff, perform some tests, and analyze the results. It doesn't have to be complex. I fact, it's nearly effortless to ask, "Hey Tree Machine, explain these tests. What questions are we asking?
Yea, I want to sell tack and make money off everyone.Glen said:
Is there anything wrong with wanting good information? That's all I'm bringing to the front. Agenda schlomenda. It's called being informed about the product you're about to use. I think it's fair game to ask.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
First, you need to start with not 'expecting' an outcome. Good science is done in an unbiassed, objective manner, with no pre-conceived notions, nor expectations. That's the methodology, Glen. No pre-judging the product based on your mood of the moment.
I <b>do</b> have a rough outline of the research protocol, if that's what you were asking. Would you like to participate? It's simply a field-trial, is all. We're not funded to do a full-scale analysis. It's just basic testing in a real life setting. Outdoor lab.
So far, the entire research staff is volunteer, as are the subjects in the study. Are there any questions so far?
I <b>do</b> have a rough outline of the research protocol, if that's what you were asking. Would you like to participate? It's simply a field-trial, is all. We're not funded to do a full-scale analysis. It's just basic testing in a real life setting. Outdoor lab.
So far, the entire research staff is volunteer, as are the subjects in the study. Are there any questions so far?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
These are the questions we wish to answer. These and more.
Tree Machine
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Getting back on track
Hmmm, I'm not sure where to go with this. Personally, I'd like to continue on with the discussion about biodegradable bar oil as per the title of the thread. I'm in agreement that the tackifier is a sub-subject, but it seems to have taken front stage. I'll accept responsibility for that.
Glen mentioned that I seem to have an agenda against tack. In general, no. Actually I'm mildly fascinated by the stuff, but it is true I see absolutely no benefit of using it in <i>the one specific system</i> of which we're talking, and that is of a chainsaw bar and chain and sprockets.
The only reason I can say this and take a firm stance is because of direct experience in daily commercial use of almost 4 years using only supermarket shelf vegetable oils. If it didn't perform flawlessly I think I would have learned this within a relatively short time.
I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of veggie oil through their saws. If this would damage the chain, bar, drive sprocket, bar tip, or oiling mechanism, or if it would diminish the cutting performance in any way then I have painted myself as an idiot. With that risk spoken up front, I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of straight veggie oil through their saws.
The real issue I'M FEELING here is really not about tackifiers or any form of lubricant. I think it's about convention and <i>beliefs</i>. We see this all over. Resistance to change and having to own up that what we had previously held as truth is really not. Things are not always as they outwardly appear and just because certain truths are passed down to us from previous generations of arborists does not mean we have to stay married to them. Any thoughts on this?
Hmmm, I'm not sure where to go with this. Personally, I'd like to continue on with the discussion about biodegradable bar oil as per the title of the thread. I'm in agreement that the tackifier is a sub-subject, but it seems to have taken front stage. I'll accept responsibility for that.
Glen mentioned that I seem to have an agenda against tack. In general, no. Actually I'm mildly fascinated by the stuff, but it is true I see absolutely no benefit of using it in <i>the one specific system</i> of which we're talking, and that is of a chainsaw bar and chain and sprockets.
The only reason I can say this and take a firm stance is because of direct experience in daily commercial use of almost 4 years using only supermarket shelf vegetable oils. If it didn't perform flawlessly I think I would have learned this within a relatively short time.
I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of veggie oil through their saws. If this would damage the chain, bar, drive sprocket, bar tip, or oiling mechanism, or if it would diminish the cutting performance in any way then I have painted myself as an idiot. With that risk spoken up front, I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of straight veggie oil through their saws.
The real issue I'M FEELING here is really not about tackifiers or any form of lubricant. I think it's about convention and <i>beliefs</i>. We see this all over. Resistance to change and having to own up that what we had previously held as truth is really not. Things are not always as they outwardly appear and just because certain truths are passed down to us from previous generations of arborists does not mean we have to stay married to them. Any thoughts on this?
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well, I call this PROGRESS. Awesome effort by everybody!
Let's move on, then, because Glen is right, I DO have an agenda, to keep my veggie-based oil clean and uncontaminated.
Let's end here and move on to a sister thread, called <a href=http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=20909>Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil? </a>
Rusty starts with the $64,000 question.
-end-
Let's move on, then, because Glen is right, I DO have an agenda, to keep my veggie-based oil clean and uncontaminated.
Let's end here and move on to a sister thread, called <a href=http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=20909>Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil? </a>
Rusty starts with the $64,000 question.
-end-
ozy365
ArboristSite Operative
I made the switch to vegatable oil this season with good results. I spent the day ripping boards with an Alaskan Mill on my MS290 with good results. The only problem I had was the saw smelled like french fries.
tricky coyote
New Member
Free, re-used vegetable oil for bar oil
As you may know, you can power any diesel engine on vegetable oil. Google "straight vegetable oil" or see a site like www.greasecar.com.
We power our diesels on re-used vegetable oil that we collect for free from the back of restaurants and then let settle and/or run through a filter.
I imagine that this oil could also be used as bar oil.
Japanese restaurants are best. Avoid places that cook lots of meat as lard is not generally liquid at operating temp, and it stinks.
As you may know, you can power any diesel engine on vegetable oil. Google "straight vegetable oil" or see a site like www.greasecar.com.
We power our diesels on re-used vegetable oil that we collect for free from the back of restaurants and then let settle and/or run through a filter.
I imagine that this oil could also be used as bar oil.
Japanese restaurants are best. Avoid places that cook lots of meat as lard is not generally liquid at operating temp, and it stinks.
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