Cabling and Bracing

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Reaction wood is very nice if the stem is standing alone...but....when it is being added on to a large leader that is challenging a codom with included bark....well then it is just more mass moving away from the other stem in the fault or defect.
Doesn't that depend on where this reaction wood is formed? I think a review of basic biomechanics is needed, tv. The baseball bat and scotch tape analogies are very hard to apply here. Wohn has laid out very clearly the uses for dynamic systems.

Jon I think it's time to retract the "snake oil" epithet. If you have the vision to put a laser in a tube to site your next drill hole, you can see the place for dynamic support.
 
Doesn't that depend on where this reaction wood is formed? I think a review of basic biomechanics is needed, tv.

Pls, TS, by all means review them as they apply to this analogy.

The baseball bat and scotch tape analogies are very hard to apply here.

I disagree and, again, please explain why as an expert on bio mechanics.
 
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Wohn, best you just ignore this guy, he's like a tired old worn out record stuck in the 70's groove.

His strategy is ALWAYS to attack people personally, lie, call them names, distort reality, defame, slander, bully etc.

He has really poor literacy skills, cant even use the quote button properly as clearly seen all over the place, comprehension that is so poor that he contradicts himself continually (we call them backflips). If the advancement of arboriculture was dependent on this guys open mind you might as well change jobs and call in the apes. :monkey:

He should try pumping his mental muscle more than those biceps he wore out drinking years ago. :buttkick:

Somewhere today, some person half his age is perhaps cracking the cure for a serious disease, whether they were in diapers or not makes little difference except to this man's ulterior motives of degrading people using anything he can lay his hands on, even your religion or lack of it.

I wonder if his fellow parishioners read his tripe? Thank goodness the confessional has been done away with as he'd set his bed up in there for the session he'd be having.

He likes to call things like a manufactured and rated rope "elastic" because it suits his tainted perspective, he thinks it gains him some leverage in a debate but just makes him look even less intelligent than he already is.

He claims I attack 2 arborists, I do not ... I just show their errors, they are their own worst enemies as everyone else can clearly see. Trust me, the arborist world is far greater than 2 American hard heads. :bang:

Forget them, who cares what they think really. :)
 
I don't want to turn a homeowner thread into a cabling argument, so I'm adding this here....began in this thread.

DSC00042.jpg


NCTREE said:
The triple leader could be a problem like someone else said with side walk in the future. If you like the tree though it can be made safer with a little dynamic cabling.

...

ddhlakebound said:
I don't want to transfer another thread's argument into this one, and we can't tell enough from the pic to determine the degree of included bark, but....

The only option those three leads have as they grow in size is to exert outward pressure on the other two leads. It's a significant fault, and should be addressed with static cabling IMHO. (steel cable) Start the reaction wood forming now as a whole, instead of as three individuals.

NCTREE said:
I disagree, those trunks are in a triangular pattern not a straight line where the center lead is pushing out on the other two trunks. If there is included bark then steal cabling is not going do anymore than dynamic cabling will do.

Trees build up tension wood from forces exerted on them from an outside source just as a gymnast builds muscle strength from lifting weights. Steal cabling restricts tension wood dynamic cabling encourages it. Trees in a forest work in uniform with each other moving from side to side as they bounce off other trees. The same concept happens with the branches of individual trees. Trees should just simply me allowed to move with the forces exert on them.

One last thing as the trunk calipers increase in diameter outwards so does the strength. As long as there is no defects in the trunks like rot or girdling roots then they should do fine.

Opinions?
 
Ohh! I see this is over here now. ddh if you are going to bring up the argument than argue your case. Don't wait for your guys to bail you out.

That tree is young and still growing if you steal cable it now then it will have to be recabled ten years down the road as it get taller. Dynamic cabling would allow it the freedom to grow and would do less injury to the tree.
 
Cutting them off at the base I assume?

Wouldn't that lead to

  1. decay in root crown
  2. excessive pruning creating root/foliage ratio imbalance - starvation and death of some roots
  3. accelerated growth of existing leader
  4. probability of epicormics and suckers
 
I'd cut the 2 leads off and eliminate the future included bark injuries while this young.
Hard to judge 3D trees by 2D pics. Removing two would leave a lopsided leaner that would never branch out evenly on its bare side. But it might gain enough symmetry to be stable enough for the owner.

The 3 trunks look like stump sprouts, so the usual concerns aren't as bad as in a typical pruning situation. Also without knowing the species--Quercus.....? we are guessing a lot.New sprouts from the stump can be snipped off easily enough. Epicormic growth in the crown would form buttresses, and tend to stabilize the tree. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Whacking or subordinating 2 might work, dynamic cabling or steel would also work, but would need replacement over time. If followup was uncertain, maybe subordinating is best. It depends on client goals.
 
Really??? Do you think thats a good idea. thats 2/3 of the tree.

Really???.....Yeah really!!!

"Large-maturing trees are usually not suited for this form. (if this form is desired)...For the strongest tree, develop 4 to 6 inches of vertical spacing between multiple trunks. ...The least desirable form is present when all stems originate from the same position on the trunk, OR WHEN INCLUDED BARK FORMS." Illustrated Guide To Pruning, Gilman, pg 142

Also please note undesirable structure noted illustrated fig 10-1 page 143. The picture looks just like the one in the thread.

Young trees such as these are much more dynamic and can recover from such pruning cuts better than more mature trees and this pruning is obviously the lesser of 2 evils.
 
Quick questions

Would you consider a staged reduction or just zap em in one go? Also what do you think of TS's thesis that they could be stump sprouts?
 
Would you consider a staged reduction or just zap em in one go? Also what do you think of TS's thesis that they could be stump sprouts?

What are the benefits of subordinating? A careful and skillful cut must be made to ensure not injuring remaining tissue.

I think it is irrelevant if they are stump sprouts or not and I would just bite the bullet and remove the 2 most subordinate leaders with the least lean toward targets. The remaining one could be staked if nec. If catastrophe strikes and an ensuing attack of fungi occurs....cut the damn thing down and put in a more appropriate starter. This may happen down the road with the pinching and wounding of the included bark in a worst scenario when the tree is more established.

If this tree was started like this from planting then shame on the landscaper for delivering and shame on the ho for taking delivery.
 
Thanks!

If this tree was started like this from planting then shame on the landscaper for delivering and shame on the ho for taking delivery.

Not too many HO's would know what a codom was let alone what it implied, and not too many landscapers would know either, (though there are definately exceptions).
 
Thanks!



Not too many HO's would know what a codom was let alone what it implied, and not too many landscapers would know either, (though there are definately exceptions).

If a landscaper does not recognize this defect then they should be regulated out somehow. A homeowner should be able to discern this through common sense if this is a large maturing tree IMO. We are listing a link in our town called "The Homeowners Guide To Trees" on our Urban Forestry site.

The more sophisticated tree owner is our ally.
 
IMO the longevity is in favor of the tried and true system with decades and decades of history.

I am not sure that longevity should be the only consideration. There is something to be said for a bracing system that need to be regularly inspected and replaced.

As for the risk of tissue damage from the dynamic systems ... one could simply calculate the force exerted by the tree (Turgid pressure of cells at say 860kPa - Mcleod and Cram) by the surface area of contact. Seems like it is unlikely to cause tissue damage unless the system is constantly loaded, which it shouldn't be.
 
Ohh! I see this is over here now. ddh if you are going to bring up the argument than argue your case. Don't wait for your guys to bail you out.

That tree is young and still growing if you steal cable it now then it will have to be recabled ten years down the road as it get taller. Dynamic cabling would allow it the freedom to grow and would do less injury to the tree.

I have already argued my case. To me, the most important factor in this tree(s) is the junction at the base. There is no avoiding included bark. If it's not there now, it will be soon enough, and the only thing that will prevent it is a chainsaw.

It makes no difference if static or dynamic is used from a maintenance standpoint. Both will have to be checked on and replaced as necessary.

I don't see removing 2 leads as a good option, the homeowner will be left with a leaning tree bereft of 2/3 of it's wind support, with 2 large wounds at its base.

Originally Posted by NCTREE
I disagree, those trunks are in a triangular pattern not a straight line where the center lead is pushing out on the other two trunks. If there is included bark then steal cabling is not going do anymore than dynamic cabling will do.

Trees build up tension wood from forces exerted on them from an outside source just as a gymnast builds muscle strength from lifting weights. Steal cabling restricts tension wood dynamic cabling encourages it. Trees in a forest work in uniform with each other moving from side to side as they bounce off other trees. The same concept happens with the branches of individual trees. Trees should just simply me allowed to move with the forces exert on them.

One last thing as the trunk calipers increase in diameter outwards so does the strength. As long as there is no defects in the trunks like rot or girdling roots then they should do fine.

I'm fully aware that they are in a triangle pattern. There is (or will be) included bark. Static cabling will do much more than dynamic cabling as this tree matures. Granted, it's small enough now that dynamic could be beneficial for a time, but at some point static will be necessary to support the growing leads and included bark junction.

Steal cabling restricts tension wood dynamic cabling encourages it.

So the tree knows it's now carrying steel, and no longer produces reaction wood? I don't think so.

Adding the steel cable will change the location that the tree adds reaction wood, it won't keep the tree from adding reaction wood. By making the three tops behave as one, the tree will begin adding reaction wood to support it's new dynamic (the whole tree) instead of adding reaction wood to support three faulted junctions.

Trees in a forest work in uniform with each other moving from side to side as they bounce off other trees.

:bang:

These trees aren't in a forest. They don't have the same dynamics of trees that are, and they're faulted at the base. Better to leave the forest dynamic in the forest.

Trees should just simply me allowed to move with the forces exert on them.

I agree, except when they've got multiple faults and targets aplenty. This tree has multiple faults and targets aplenty, and we DO NOT want those faults to be flopping about in the wind. That means static cabling.

One last thing as the trunk calipers increase in diameter outwards so does the strength. As long as there is no defects in the trunks like rot or girdling roots then they should do fine.

Again, :bang:

The trunks will not only increase in diameter in an outward direction. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the growth rings go all the way around the stem. So as they're getting stronger with diameter, they're also exerting outward force from the inward growth. They're also supporting more weight, because the whole tree is getting bigger, not just the trunk, so that "added strength" is already being used to support more tree. And there are multiple faults in the trunk....included bark. Have you EVER seen a codominant with an included bark junction fail? That never happens...:dizzy:
 
It is a no brainer....remove 2 of the 3 stems.

I can understand the thinking, but at what diameter of lead does that option go away?

I see the included bark as easier to manage over time than the root crown decay and root/shoot ratio that ekka mentioned.

Combined with the fact that one of those three stems standing alone will be horribly imbalanced and not very pretty, I'd prefer to remove completely and start over than reduce to one lead. And I'd rather keep all 3 with a cable than start over.

Isn't it better to have faults we can see and manage above ground, than to have the fault below ground?
 
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