Cabling and Bracing

[jomoco]

So rather than being just arboricultural snake oil salesmen, the installation speed and lower cost of these dynamic systems worsens that title further, making proponents/installers of dynamic cabling, expedient and cheap snake oil salesmen.

I must admit that I'm very curious to see whether the ISA and ANSI embrace this snake oil into their standards?

jomoco

 

[treeseer]

Jon you concept of "fault" seems a bit more black and white than reality. Consider:

A big fork with included bark and or rot. Movement will aggravate, static preferred.

A big fork with a branch bark ridge and no rot, but an overextended end that cannot be corrected by pruning. Movement will mitigate, dynamic preferred. this is all spelled out quite well in the sherrill catalog.

Jon you say that static cable can help compartmentalize a defective fork. I do not understand how this happens; please explain?Trees do know what they are doing; we need to follow their lead, and not impose rigidity where dynamism is needed. One size does not fit all.

Jon please apply your mind to this instead of changing the subject

thang Q

 

[jomoco]

Jon you say that static cable can help compartmentalize a defective fork. I do not understand how this happens; please explain?

Ensure it's integrity would have been better wording and more accurate Guy.

The fundamental problem with current dynamic cabling is that providing support always lessens the amount of reaction wood produced compared to an unsupported branch, yes some reaction wood will be generated, but it will always be less than an unsupported branch, thereby making the branch dependent on it's support, as that degree of support grows larger over time, the linear pull of the encircling synthetic line will incrementally increase to the point it damages the farside cambium on both attachment girdling points, and this will happen long before the synthetic line reaches anywhere near it's rated strength, and this affect will be far more prevalent in soft bark and cambium trees like Alnus rhombifolia.

The precise reason that cabling should only be recommended to help isolate and support an identified quantifiable fault in the trees structure.

Once a steel system has been installed correctly, it can meet it's rated strength on day one, or 15 years later, doing no further damage to the bark, phloem or cambium whatsoever.

The whole dynamic strangulation system is poorly thoughout in terms of both attachment, and coming anywhere near it's rated strengths without massive bark, phloem and cambial damage.

I don't call the current dynamic systems being sold snake oil lightly by any means, and I could prove it on any Alnus rhombifolia anywhere in SoCal Guy.

jomoco

 

[murphy4trees]

What kind of branch can't be pruned???

I find the vast majority of cables I install, something over 98%, are in trees with included bark, co-dom stems. And I cable a lot relative to my peers. I usually buy 100 thibles at a time and several dozen j lags and thru bolts at a time.

Yes, there is the occasional big heavy limb that is reaching for light... but then I most often just lighten it by pruning the tips lightly... I tell my clients all the time... "we don't need to take TOO mcuh off, just the needle that breaks the camels back in a snow, ice or wind storm"... Take the weight off at the tips where the leverage is.. many small cuts and as long as there is good wood at the branchn union, I will leave it at that... only sell the cable as a "feel good" measure... and tell the client that..

If the tree is hollow and there is much question about the integrity of the limb, I'll prefer to either remove or partially remove the tree/limb.. Better to just remove the risk than to cable in most cases... My preference..

 

[treeseer]

What kind of branch can't be pruned???

Some, not many, can't afford to lose the amount of foliage that is needed to reduce risk to an acceptable level.

Yes, there is the occasional big heavy limb that is reaching for light... but then I most often just lighten it by pruning the tips lightly... I tell my clients all the time... "we don't need to take TOO mcuh off, just the needle that breaks the camels back in a snow, ice or wind storm"... Take the weight off at the tips where the leverage is.. many small cuts and as long as there is good wood at the branchn union, I will leave it at that...

Sounds like sound arboriculture.

If the tree is hollow and there is much question about the integrity of the limb, I'll prefer to either remove or partially remove the tree/limb.. Better to just remove the risk than to cable in most cases... My preference..

But partially removing the limb or tree does not remove the risk, just reduces it. And that can be sound arboriculture too. Glad to have your reasonable input on this, Daniel!

 

[murphy4trees]

my point is that at least around here, the vasy majority of cables are (or at least should be) installed in co-doms with included bark... I prefer steel cable for that job... I very rarely have even seen dynamic support system, and of the very few that I have seen, one particular one comes to mond that was a rediculous waste of money...

I would really only reach for the dynamic system if there is a hollow limb, so as not to damage compartmentalization...

Gas drills, sharp bits, 2 climbers setting high steel cables, left intentionally loose... works really well... And like I said, if you are drilling wood over 10", you are either in a monster tree or you aren't 2/3 of the way to the tips..

Low cables suck....

again leaving the hypothetical scenerios out of the conversation..

HAS ANYONE SEEN A CABLE THAT WAS TOO HIGH??? ANYONE????

 

[jomoco]

HAS ANYONE SEEN A CABLE THAT WAS TOO HIGH??? ANYONE????

Yeah...........my cable tv bill.

So I canceled it and settled for live streaming CSPAN on my computer!

jomoco

 

[Corymbia]

I am a snake oil salesman

So rather than being just arboricultural snake oil salesmen, the installation speed and lower cost of these dynamic systems worsens that title further, making proponents/installers of dynamic cabling, expedient and cheap snake oil salesmen.
jomoco

So thankfully useless hypotheticals are gone!

Now we come down to the next issue and that is name calling.

OK if that is the best you can do; there are no real issues left. I am a snake oil salesman. I know a lot about snake oil, I know what it can do and I recommend it only for those purposes. No it will not cure baldness. Please read on

So my snake oil is cheap or do you mean value for money. I guess you haven't noticed that the more expensive watches are brands like Rolex and yet that does not mean they keep better time than a digital watch that is a hundredth of the price. Some people make decisions on functionality (what works best in each situation) ... it is clear that you are not one of them.

I have to tell you I don't know the difference in the cost between the two bracing systems and I use and sell both. We charge based on the value of what it does not on what it costs us to do. I do know that my clients love the fact that we care about their trees and we build long term relationships that include repeat visits.

Selling any form of bracing under the pretence that is a one time fix for all time is a very questionable approach.

We have established that different techniques serve different functions and you have made clear that you see no value in preventative bracing. That is your choice but I think it is a bit hard on your clients trees. Most of my clients like keeping the trees healthy and are proactive in that regard. Oddly enough preventive care is often cheaper than remedial care.

Seems like the people who see dynamic bracing as snake oil sales are not very smart. It seems that they allow the panacea mentality of fools to distract them from the true benefit of the product. Yes I sell good quality snake oil at a value for money price. Snake oil is high in omega 3 fatty acids and is good for your health ... see below ... now fancy that!
:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:


From wikipedia

Snake oil sold in San Francisco's Chinatown in 1989 was found [4] to contain:

75% mostly unidentified carrier material, including camphor
25% oil from Chinese water snakes, itself consisting of:
20% eicosapentaenic acid (EPA) - an omega-3 fatty acid
48% myristic acid (14:0)
10% stearic acid (18:0)
14% oleic acid (18:1ω9)
7% linoleic acid (18:2ω6) plus arachidonic acid (20:4ω6)
The Chinese water snake (Enhydris chinensis) is the richest known source of EPA, the starting material the body uses to make the series 3 prostaglandins. These prostaglandins are the biochemical messengers that control some aspects of inflammation, rather like aspirin, which also affects the prostaglandin system. Like essential fatty acids, EPA can be absorbed through the skin. Salmon oil, the next best source, contains 18% EPA. Rattlesnake oil contains 8.5% EPA.

 

[Ekka]

I can see why America is one of the few places left to embrace the metric system too. LOL ! Must be snake oil.