ArboristSite.com Sponsors
 
 


CARB compliant or not?

Discussion in 'Chainsaw' started by KenJax Tree, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. KenJax Tree

    KenJax Tree Terraphobic

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    11,594
    Likes Received:
    13,440
    Location:
    Over there
    What is the difference between a CARB compliant saw and one that isn't? Less power,more power,equal,more choked up....
     
  2. KenJax Tree

    KenJax Tree Terraphobic

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    11,594
    Likes Received:
    13,440
    Location:
    Over there
  3. PJF1313

    PJF1313 ArboristSite Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    186
    Location:
    Pine Barrons, L.I., NY
    CARB Compliant =

    C lean
    A ir
    R esource
    B oard

    more EPA BS IMHO.
     
  4. zogger

    zogger Tree Freak

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    16,456
    Likes Received:
    11,136
    Location:
    North Georgia
    California legal to be sold complient. They are more strict than other places

    California Air Resources Board - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    small snip from wiki entry

    California is the only state that is permitted to have such a regulatory agency, since it is the only state that had one before the passage of the federal Clean Air Act. Other states are permitted to follow CARB standards, or use the federal ones, but not set their own.
     
  5. KenJax Tree

    KenJax Tree Terraphobic

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    11,594
    Likes Received:
    13,440
    Location:
    Over there
    I know what it means. I guess my question is how are they different? is a CARB compliant saw more choked up (different muffler? CAT?) or have less power and will it need more work done to it when modding it versus one that isn't CARB compliant.
     
  6. c5rulz

    c5rulz Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,681
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    As I understand it, CARB regulations are stricly about emissions and no consideration is made regarding how well the engine will run or last. It is just bureacratic regulations. Here is a long read on The EPA and CARB regs on chainsaws and water pumps. It appears some products are just being discontinued due to regs.
    EPA and CARB Emission Standards To Control Nonroad Exhaust Emissions of Fire Pumps and Chain Saws

    This is troubling:

    Tampering with an Emission-Certified Engine
    Tampering with an emission-certified engine may reduce the life span and performance of the engine. Tampering, which is against the law and subject to a civil penalty/fine, includes the following:

    Knowingly disabling an emission control component of a certified saw,
    Adjusting the fuel or exhaust system,
    Changing the engine’s performance so it no longer meets the engine specifications,
    Improperly venting crankcase emissions,
    Installing a replacement part of a different configuration, or
    Adding a part that was not originally certified with the engine.
    Some manufacturers have equipped engines with special caps or plugs that limit or prevent adjusting the fuel mixture or engine timing. Removal of these special plugs and adjustments beyond the manufacturers’ specified limits is considered tampering.

    In servicing an engine that has been tampered with, the EPA encourages repair technicians to restore the engine to the original certified configuration. This is required only if the repair is specific to the tampered with component/system.
     
  7. zogger

    zogger Tree Freak

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    16,456
    Likes Received:
    11,136
    Location:
    North Georgia
    Most likely, yes, more choked up, with all of the above. Example, a really restrictive opening cat muffler will just not make as much power as an opened up non cat. Sealled carbs versus easy to adjust, etc. There are so many engines out there though, no hard or fast rule other than cal requirements are pretty strict, so expect more work with modding.
     
  8. KenJax Tree

    KenJax Tree Terraphobic

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2012
    Messages:
    11,594
    Likes Received:
    13,440
    Location:
    Over there
    Ok thanks guys. I ordered an Echo 355T for $449 but the CARB compliant one was $399 and i was wonder what was so different about it making it $50 cheaper.
     
  9. zogger

    zogger Tree Freak

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    16,456
    Likes Received:
    11,136
    Location:
    North Georgia
    Yes, it is troubling because they are full of it.

    Its hilarious really, it is so blatant!!! Their own lame policies cause entire cubic miles of wildlands to burn up! Then when they burn, and it finally rains, it silts up the streams and kills off the endangered whatevers that lived there. How enlightened! Closing off access roads, limiting firewood harvest and timber harvest, letting one buhzillion pine beetle killed trees sit there and dry up so the next lightning bolt can set them off! How many chainsaws or the trash water pumps have to run dirty to equate ONE big major western fire? All of them ever built wouldnt even do it is my guess. How many choked up compliant small engine tools out there get trashed and have to be replaced, way ahead of a normal product lifespan, because of these policies? Whats the environmental cost of having to make new ones by the millions? How many trashed engines from their crap monsanto lobby ethanol contaminated fuel requirements?

    and questions and observations like that there....

    and this is from the page there at the link

    New engine technology has focused more on lightweight, miniaturized 4-cycle engines, or “mini” 4-cycle engines, for smaller displacement chain saws and pumps.

    Oh ya, where are all these normal rear handle mini 4 stroke chainsaws hiding at? Thats an older page, I guess their predictions didnt come true, they went to strato charging and computer controlled and cat mufflers, but even then, it is clear from the tone the bureaucrats who dont really live in the real world just want to kill off two strokes in general just because.

    hecks windchimes, a few job jacking china cargo ships bringing in china made crap have WAY more pollution to them from burning bunker fuel. And how many of those cargo ships dock in the US every year, thousands? But thats OK, gotta keep them NYC big wall street traders rolling in the dough! And how about where that stuff is made, how is the pollution control there? Same dang air, floats over here eventually....oh, we are not supposed to be aware of that...

    Just hilarious, the obvious hypocrisy and big huge money payoff cronyism. I am all for clean air, and there are some better common sense ways to go about it, to get the most clean for the buck, I just dont appreciate mandated junk science that is easily debunked.

    EPA, good idea, horrid implementation in some areas.
     
  10. Chris-PA

    Chris-PA Where the Wild Things Are

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,027
    Likes Received:
    8,534
    Location:
    PA
    Which is exactly how it should be - emissions standards should be just that and only that. It is the job of the manufacturer to make sure they sell quality products that work and last, or if they don't then they deserve to go out of business. So don't blame the regulations for things like carbs adjusted too lean and screws covered with epoxy, and choked up cat mufflers - that's just a flashing neon sign that says "We didn't spend squat on product development, but thanks for the money sucker".
     
  11. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    22,260
    Likes Received:
    5,383
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    regulations suck have never fixed anything only hurts end user .
     
  12. naturelover

    naturelover Tree Freak

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    11,480
    Likes Received:
    7,791
    Location:
    The Sin Wagon
    My 441C would beg to differ.
     
  13. Chris-PA

    Chris-PA Where the Wild Things Are

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,027
    Likes Received:
    8,534
    Location:
    PA
    Bull. Corporations have never fixed or done anything that did not make them a profit. If polluting the air we breathe is profitable then they will do that.

    Traditional 2 stroke engines pump a significant portion of the fuel out the exhaust unburned. Chainsaw carbs run so rich that they misfire with even a slight reduction of load, to the point that at WOT no load they won't rev any higher. This was fine with chainsaw manufacturers, so they had to be forced into doing product development to fix it, and they cried big crocodile tears about it. But low and behold, it turns out it was quite possible to fix these problems after all, and we have better products now because of it. The manufacturers would never have developed that otherwise, they would have given the money to managers as bonuses for the fantastic job they were doing.

    The exact same scenario played out in the automobile industry over and over, with both emissions and safety regulations. Heck, how many saws would have chain brakes or A/V systems if regulations somewhere had not required their development?
     
  14. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    22,260
    Likes Received:
    5,383
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    I'm a victim or their tampering ok truth is the epa's regulations cost me many thousands of dollars your not supposed to choke a diesel truck to the point they don't run. I wish I had known they did it prior to buying the 3 50k pos's but now they are sold and I went back to old fashioned work horses. My 1965 is five times the truck in dependability. and my 372 xpw will be continuously rebuilt till I die and I ain't drinking the koolaid regulations have ruined the Automobiles and small engines .
     
  15. Chris-PA

    Chris-PA Where the Wild Things Are

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,027
    Likes Received:
    8,534
    Location:
    PA
    The EPA did not make your truck. You gave good money to a company in return for a truck you are not satisfied with (3 times?). I'd be pi$$ed at the company that ripped me off.
     
  16. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    22,260
    Likes Received:
    5,383
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    Well that same company made perfect vehicles before government control and if I could buy this brand new just as they were made i would be doing so but regulations ruined dependability period I'm sorry if you can't accept that some witnessed the decline since 65!

    [​IMG]
     
    president likes this.
  17. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    22,260
    Likes Received:
    5,383
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    s sidewall likes this.
  18. ropensaddle

    ropensaddle Feel Lucky

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    22,260
    Likes Received:
    5,383
    Location:
    Hot Springs Arkansas
    So tell Me how their regulations have helped me again? I would like you to include what happened to our manufacturing jobs while your at it :)
     
  19. Redoakranch

    Redoakranch ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Central California Coast
    The old mechanical pump diesel pickup trucks used to get up to 21mpg 20 years ago, now with all the smog stuff on them they get about 12-13mpg. Big rigs in CA are a joke too with big $10000 exhaust filters and computer motors our trucks tend to overheat much more. My kids school just got a free bus from the state for crushing the old bus and the new pos breaks weekly(computer stuff) and gets 4mpg instead of 6-7 mpg like the old one. Love clean air! I do like more efficient and powerful motors of all kinds but not if it comprimises durability. BTW commercial jets dump tens of thousands of gallons of jet-a fuel into the air everyday so I wouldn't worry about these little 2 stroke motors. All that being said I do want a 562xp badly, I think it's a step in the right direction, not sealed carb adjustments.
     
  20. Chris-PA

    Chris-PA Where the Wild Things Are

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2011
    Messages:
    10,027
    Likes Received:
    8,534
    Location:
    PA
    It's perfectly reasonable for a country to limit how much crap a company's products can pump into the air. Of course some companies that have not spent any money on product development will whine and cry, and then produce garbage. And hopefully lose their business and go under. Other companies will do a better job and get that business making better products. That's a good thing. It's a good reason to buy on the merits of the product rather than brand loyalty.

    The products I design have to meet a lot of US and international standards for safety and electromagnetic interference and susceptibility. The standards are tough, and I don't agree with the ideas in all of them. But we meet them, through careful design and understanding of the rules. I've seen the crap other companies try to get away with, and usually it shows they didn't understand it and didn't put in the effort. There's no excuse for a poorly done job.
     

Share This Page