Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

[Marshy]

So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.

To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.

On the secondary combustion type stoves I've heard the secondary tubes can wear out as well. Has anyone experienced this or the need to replace secondary combustion tubes?

What has been your experience with either or both thechnologies and would you choose one over the other?

Of course I might trash the idea of a free standing stove and get a thermo control so I can operate my baseboard heat.

 

[Chris-PA]

I've long been interested in a catalytic stove, but the concerns you've listed are what kept me from buying one. I would also be concerned about smaller manufacturers and availability of specialized parts in general, like cats and complex firebox parts, given my expectation of what is coming economically.

Our main stove is a US Stoves Magnolia secondary combustion model - it was an inexpensive welded steel unit, and this is the 7th or 8th season we've burned it. There is no sign of any deterioration of the secondary manifold, or anything else. It just works.

When I picked out the smaller stove a few years ago I selected one with simple firebox parts. The Hampton H200 is also secondary combustion and shows no air manifold issues either.

 

[NSMaple1]

I don't think I could convince myself to run a stove, over using my baseboards.

 

[Wisneaky]

I have a wood furnace that has secondary burn tubes. It is my second season with it. I pulled them out a few weeks ago and they are starting to rust and warp. I'd probably say they will last another season or two. So max I'd say 5 year life span on the tubes.

 

[Idahonative]

So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.

To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.

On the secondary combustion type stoves I've heard the secondary tubes can wear out as well. Has anyone experienced this or the need to replace secondary combustion tubes?

What has been your experience with either or both thechnologies and would you choose one over the other?

Of course I might trash the idea of a free standing stove and get a thermo control so I can operate my baseboard heat.

I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:

- Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA. Replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.

- Cats don't just wear out all of the sudden. They are coated with precious metals that burn off over a long period of time (12,000+hrs). You won't get up at 3am to a cold house and realize your cat needs changed. The cat will give you plenty of notice when it is starting to get weak and can almost always be changed on the off season.

- Cat stoves burn differently. The firebox doesn't glow red with hot coals during normal operation. They are designed to run "cool" and smolder. This creates a lot of smoke which the cat thrives on.

- Since getting our cat stove, our neighbors don't even know we heat with wood anymore. Very rarely does any visible smoke make it out of our stack. Smoke is fuel and if your stack smokes, you are wasting wood. Our cat stove eats smoke like there's no tomorrow. The flue temps are so low you can touch the pipe directly above the stove during normal operation.

- No need to clean your flue...it won't need it if you burn seasoned wood.

- You can expect long burn times and plenty of heat. We load our stove once every 24 hrs. with pine. We have also done a couple of distance runs with hardwood. One run heated our home for 43 hrs. and the other 45 hrs. Both times, the temps were cold (mostly single digits) and not a lot of sun shining. We do have a small house though.

- We are burning 33%+ less wood then we were with our non cat stove...covering the cost of the cat by many times. I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.

So I guess my advice to you is: THE CAT IS YOUR FRIEND.

 

[captjack]

I have 2 stoves - the first is a big Earthstove insert with a cat - I get a few years out of the cat and it need to be replaces - 150-200 bucks online - the stove is very efficient and can easily burn all night and then some - puts out a tremendous amount of heat.

My little stove is a NC 13 with burn tubes , The nc 13 is a lot smaller and does ok heating my bead room but i can't get long burns on it - There seems to be a lot more tending to this stove - with air adjustments etc to keep a consistent temp.

These two stoves are not really comparable because of their sizes but I would go with the cat stove all the way - longer more consistent burns and a lot of heat.

 

[Marshy]

I don't think I could convince myself to run a stove, over using my baseboards.

What are you usin an OWB?

An OWB is out of the question for me. They burn too much wood and are too much of an investment in more ways than one IMO.

I've strongly considered an indoor boiler or a wood stove with heat coils like the thermo control. I would have to plumb in a thermal storage tank but a self built tank can be made easily on a budget.

My only reservation about a full blown IWB is every one I've ever seen let out a lot of smoke when it was refueled and that does not jive well with me. The reason I like my current stove is because I can successfully refuel it without it ever leaking smoke into the house. Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove wher I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.

Anyways, the discussion about cat vs secondary burn is still applicable when talking about IWB's, I just am less familiar with what's available vs free standing stoves...

Regardless, my current setup is in the basement of my home. I have a 1850 sqft ranch over the basement constructed in 1999. The basement is unfinished with concrete floor and has a walkout with a garage door. One third if the basement is divided off with an uninsulated wall. The smaller side if the basement is where the stove and walkout is. The house is heated through natural convection/radiation and I currently burn about 6-7 cord keeding it 72-75F.

Thanks for the input so far.

 

[Marshy]

I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:

- Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA by Condar. Condar makes cats for many different stove manufacturers and replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.

- Cats don't just wear out all of the sudden. They are coated with precious metals that burn off over a long period of time (12,000+hrs). You won't get up at 3am to a cold house and realize your cat needs changed. The cat will give you plenty of notice when it is starting to get weak and can almost always be changed on the off season.

- Cat stoves burn differently. The firebox doesn't glow red with hot coals during normal operation. They are designed to run "cool" and smolder. This creates a lot of smoke which the cat thrives on.

- Since getting our cat stove, our neighbors don't even know we heat with wood anymore. Very rarely does any visible smoke make it out of our stack. Smoke is fuel and if your stack smokes, you are wasting wood. Our cat stove eats smoke like there's no tomorrow. The flue temps are so low you can touch the pipe directly above the stove during normal operation.

- No need to clean your flue...it won't need it if you burn seasoned wood.

- You can expect long burn times and plenty of heat. We load our stove once every 24 hrs. with pine. We have also done a couple of distance runs with hardwood. One run heated our home for 42 hrs. and the other 45 hrs. Both times, the temps were cold (mostly single digits) and not a lot of sun shining. We do have a small house though.

- We are burning 33%+ less wood then we were with our non cat stove...covering the cost of the cat by many times. I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.

So I guess my advice to you is: THE CAT IS YOUR FRIEND.

I read your other thread and thought the stove looked nice. I went to your site and didn't find it very useful. Please post your link again and I will take a second look. I am interested in its certifications and how it performs.

 

[Jetterbug]

I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:

- Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA by Condar. Condar makes cats for many different stove manufacturers and replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.

- Cats don't just wear out all of the sudden. They are coated with precious metals that burn off over a long period of time (12,000+hrs). You won't get up at 3am to a cold house and realize your cat needs changed. The cat will give you plenty of notice when it is starting to get weak and can almost always be changed on the off season.

- Cat stoves burn differently. The firebox doesn't glow red with hot coals during normal operation. They are designed to run "cool" and smolder. This creates a lot of smoke which the cat thrives on.

- Since getting our cat stove, our neighbors don't even know we heat with wood anymore. Very rarely does any visible smoke make it out of our stack. Smoke is fuel and if your stack smokes, you are wasting wood. Our cat stove eats smoke like there's no tomorrow. The flue temps are so low you can touch the pipe directly above the stove during normal operation.

- No need to clean your flue...it won't need it if you burn seasoned wood.

- You can expect long burn times and plenty of heat. We load our stove once every 24 hrs. with pine. We have also done a couple of distance runs with hardwood. One run heated our home for 42 hrs. and the other 45 hrs. Both times, the temps were cold (mostly single digits) and not a lot of sun shining. We do have a small house though.

- We are burning 33%+ less wood then we were with our non cat stove...covering the cost of the cat by many times. I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.

So I guess my advice to you is: THE CAT IS YOUR FRIEND.

Man, you sold me! My secondaries don't hold a flame to this cat!

 

[Chris-PA]

I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.

I don't worry about the cost of the cat, I agree it's not a major long term expense. I would worry about the availability of it - my stoves don't need much of any parts beyond door gaskets or fire brick. Then again we all have different expectations for the future.

 

[al-k]

Have had mine now for 19 years and replaced the cat the fourth time last fall and replaced the gaskets for the first time. I was starting to get a little smoke smell, now you would never know we burn wood people are surprised that the house has no smell of smoke.

 

[zogger]

Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?

 

[zogger]

I don't worry about the cost of the cat, I agree it's not a major long term expense. I would worry about the availability of it - my stoves don't need much of any parts beyond door gaskets or fire brick. Then again we all have different expectations for the future.

Well, if ya got storage in a barn someplace, you could be using a cat equipped stove now for the benefits, and if push came to shove down the road, reinstall the old school heater.

 

[Del_]

Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?

Yes, the rare earth metals eventually wear away. Abuse of the cat like overfiring and flame impingement reduce their usable lives as of course does feeding the stove cat damaging materials.

I don't use a cat but I did in the early 1980's and I think the technology is sound. I suggest having a second cat around and if in doubt that the old cat is working as designed, replace it with a new one, if the new one works the same, put the old one back in and save the new one as a future standard for testing and eventual replacement.

It's quite reassuring to be able to eliminate the guessing as to if the cat if function properly.

 

[Idahonative]

Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?

Keeping the cat clean is very simple. The best thing for them (and the firebox) is to get them hot once per day. We call it "burn off" and we let the stove do this at least 15 min. per day after loading. DO NOT use chemicals to clean your cat or use anything harsh or abrasive. The harshest thing you should use (once per season?) is a soft brush on the front of the cat. DO NOT remove your cat unless it is necessary to replace it. If you are running your stove correctly, the cat will keep itself clean.

Some may say cat maintenance is just another reason not to own a cat stove, but we don't run our cat stove any different than we did our non cat stove. The only difference having to do with the burn off. We do/did burn offs with both stoves but for different reasons. On the cat stove, burn off keeps the firebox and cat clean. The flue isn't much of a concern because the cat is consuming so much smoke. On the non cat stove, burn off keeps the flue clean. The firebox isn't a concern since it burns hot and keeps itself clean.

Whether you are burning a cat, non cat, secondary, or hybrid: Burn dry wood and get your stove hot at least 15 minutes a day. 50+ years between my parents house and ours and not once have either of us cleaned the flues. I always crack a smile when I hear talk of, or read on AS, people hiring a chimney sweep. Chimney sweeps are for people who don't know better. I don't say that to sound arrogant. I say that because if a person is going to heat their home with wood, knowing how to run your stove is a simple but very important thing.

 

[Locoweed]

No one answered op question about burn tubes. My Regency has 16 years on the original stainless steel burn tubes and the look like new.

 

[Idahonative]

No one answered op question about burn tubes. My Regency has 16 years on the original stainless steel burn tubes and the look like new.

Captjack pretty much answered that in post #6. He has both stoves and his conclusion of the cat stove is: "Longer more consistent burns" and I agree with him. Cat and secondary stoves run completely different. One running the firebox hot and one running the firebox cool. A cool firebox makes for some amazing burn times while still producing loads of heat from the cat. Sounds like you have a well made secondary stove though.

 

[BeatCJ]

Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove wher I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.

Which Lopi does your BIL have? I have a 380, the forerunner to the Endevour, and have almost no burping of smoke? I have a straight 6" flue, probably right at ideal length. The ONLY time I have an issue is when my screen on my rain cap get clogged with creosote. My stove is a little big for my house, so it does get choked down pretty tight overnight.

Since mine is an early attempt at a secondary stove, it's not real clean burning, I would consider it a "smoke lizard". If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years old. I believe at least one of the secondary tubes is cracked, and I suspect the screws holding them in place are probably rusted in place. I have a very well insulated house, and when I can afford to replace the stove, will go smaller. I am thinking about the catalyst/secondary issue myself. I'm pretty sure I don't need long burns, so I'm leaning toward a secondary type (probably a smaller Lopi) at this point.

 

[president]

we have heated our large house with and without cat technology.
Cat stoves are the way to go for long efficient burns.no coloured paper
or tin foils etc but the combustors are less than $300 to replace
you save that in fuel costs 10 times over Our stoves are the Blaze King
full sized cats with dual fans and burn 24hours ,well worth the 3,600 hundred
loonies !

 

[Idahonative]

Yes, the rare earth metals eventually wear away. Abuse of the cat like overfiring and flame impingement reduce their usable lives as of course does feeding the stove cat damaging materials.

I don't use a cat but I did in the early 1980's and I think the technology is sound. I suggest having a second cat around and if in doubt that the old cat is working as designed, replace it with a new one, if the new one works the same, put the old one back in and save the new one as a future standard for testing and eventual replacement.

It's quite reassuring to be able to eliminate the guessing as to if the cat if function properly.

Good point Del about the over firing, flame impingement, and damaging materials reducing a cats life.

And you could use a second cat to diagnose a weakening primary. But there is a real danger of breakage by taking them in and out since they become brittle with use (ceramic ones). The stoves cat thermometer will diagnose a weakening cat without taking a chance of breaking an expensive item.