Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

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I've had this curiosity for awhile now about cat size...for a couple reasons:

1. My thought (& it's only a thought) is that different sized cats will be capable of generating different amounts of heat (more or less surface area). The bigger the cat, the more heat and the smaller the lessor.

2. We frequently hear that it's expensive to replace brand X while brand Y costs half as much. Is it possible that brand X is much bigger and therefore costs more to manufacture?

I did some research on BK's website tonight and discovered our King's cat measures 5" x 10.5" x 2" for a firebox that is 4.32 cf. But I learned something that really shocked me. The Princess (2.85 cf), Ashford 30, Chinook 30, and Sirocco 30 (all 2.75 cf) are listed at 4" x 10.6" x 2". That seems really large for that size of firebox.

I tried my best to find the dimensions of the Ideal Steel but apparently it is too new. No replacement listed on Woodstock or Condar website. I did find the Fireview (1997+) and it measured 4.675" x 4.675" x 2" but I'm sure it won't be the same as the Ideal Steel. Anyone know the answer to this question? Anyone else have cat sizes from different stoves you want to share?
 
This saturday Im making the 115 mile trek to middle tennessee to check out the Buck & BK-P, However the woman on the phone says the BK she has is a Princess Ultra and may be too tall for my Fireplace. is there a height diff between the Princess & Ultra?? I dont think I saw the Ultra while doing my research...
 
I tried my best to find the dimensions of the Ideal Steel but apparently it is too new. No replacement listed on Woodstock or Condar website. I did find the Fireview (1997+) and it measured 4.675" x 4.675" x 2" but I'm sure it won't be the same as the Ideal Steel. Anyone know the answer to this question? Anyone else have cat sizes from different stoves you want to share?

I've been told the IS uses the same cat as the Fireview. I asked because if I decide to go with the IS, I want spare cat(s) lying around.
mike
 
I've been told the IS uses the same cat as the Fireview. I asked because if I decide to go with the IS, I want spare cat(s) lying around.
mike

Ok, I'll take your word for it the Ideal Steel uses the same cat as the Fireview. So, I will try to make my point and this isn't necessarily directed at you.

In this thread, I've talked a lot about a wood stoves heating efficiency (how well it burns, extracts, and delivers heat to the home). My point being that every model stove will have a different heating efficiency even if it were possible to burn the exact same load of wood (others will disagree). Which brings me to my question about cats and the possibility that different sized cats may play a major role in a stove's heating efficiency.

1. The Ideal Steel's cat measures 43.71 cubic inches.

2. The Princess, Ashford, Chinook, and Sirocco's cat measures 84.80 cubic inches (194% larger).

3. The King's cat measures 105 cubic inches (240% larger).

If it is the job of the cat to produce heat (using smoke as fuel), is it safe to assume that a larger cat will have the ability to burn more smoke and thus, produce more heat? I am obviously not an expert on cats but the above figures kind of blow my mind. We aren't talking about 10-20% larger, we are talking approximately 200% larger. I made a claim earlier in this thread that any of the stoves in #2 would heat twice as long as #1 with the same load of wood. Can a correlation be made between my claim and a cat that is nearly 200% larger?

Common sense tells me there must be a positive benefit to using a larger cat. If not, why would a company spend the extra money? Granted, the smaller cat in the Ideal Steel may have something to do with it being a hybrid. Maybe it doesn't need as large of cat since it also has tubes? I really don't know but these are interesting points and I would like to learn more.

My other question was the cost of the cats. Members have made comments that BK's cats cost twice as much and that justifies eliminating them from purchase consideration. The materials used in cats are expensive and a larger cat will obviously cost more to manufacture. If a cat is twice as big, is it unreasonable to ask twice as much?
 
I believe this is how Blaze deals with the extra flow of a hot burn.
The Ideal Steel simply uses secondaries.

On the low end, the smaller cat should be sufficient.

Yes it makes sense for it to cost twice as much.
 
I gotta ask. Do you really use a stove in South Florida?Or are you using it at another location?
Negative. I'm here (on this site) getting an education on 'heating with wood' so when I do bail on South Florida, I have a clue as to what's involved.
mike
 
Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything.

Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.

I just ripped by a BMW SUV in a recent snow storm in my Jeep Grand Cherokee.
It felt good to eat him up and leave his over=priced arse in the dusty snow swirls....ha,ha.
 
Yup, that's the site. Sure looks a lot more civilized than here, without the sycophantic butt-kissers and knuckle-draggers too. Almost too nice. Never did like Fred Rogers much either. :innocent: Forestry forum has different areas of expertise covered, AND some folks that got banned from here.

Folks at hearth (before the nazis staged their putsch) promoted an open house at Woodstock, and Tom Morrissey was answering any and all question about the new-at-the-time "Progress Hybrid" stove that was going into production momentarily. A no-bs guy IMO.

The delay with the Sandy cleanup was in arranging the federal financing for the cleanup and reforestation. Takes a while to get a state forester involved and prepare the reforestation plan. On some of the sites we're working, town wetlands lords were a real PITA too. I just got my 10th saw, a 576XP 28" Husqy. Some friends think I'm crazy. Could be, but I use them all, and if they don't do the job, they're gone. Some sites I'll be working, I'd pack a 61cc Dolmar and 33cc Tanaka, and have work suitable for both. The 576 weighs about the same as the Dolly, so it's in that mix now. Once some snowpack shrinks, and lets us get trail access again, that is. We have some really large blowdowns to do some cutting on, and lots of them.

If you're in the market for Husqy/Jonsered give sponsor Spike60 a shout. He's an encyclopedia on those saws, and can give you a great deal on new/used. He's 12 mi W of Kingston NY on NY 28. (He ships saws to folks all over the region too.)

I imagine you guys will be cleaning up from that storm for years to come.
It was a bad one, but provided a lot of firewood too I'm sure.
You can never own too many tools/saws and I'm like you when it comes to them. If I don't use them, I won't buy or keep them around.
 
I've had this curiosity for awhile now about cat size...for a couple reasons:

1. My thought (& it's only a thought) is that different sized cats will be capable of generating different amounts of heat (more or less surface area). The bigger the cat, the more heat and the smaller the lessor.

2. We frequently hear that it's expensive to replace brand X while brand Y costs half as much. Is it possible that brand X is much bigger and therefore costs more to manufacture?

I did some research on BK's website tonight and discovered our King's cat measures 5" x 10.5" x 2" for a firebox that is 4.32 cf. But I learned something that really shocked me. The Princess (2.85 cf), Ashford 30, Chinook 30, and Sirocco 30 (all 2.75 cf) are listed at 4" x 10.6" x 2". That seems really large for that size of firebox.

I tried my best to find the dimensions of the Ideal Steel but apparently it is too new. No replacement listed on Woodstock or Condar website. I did find the Fireview (1997+) and it measured 4.675" x 4.675" x 2" but I'm sure it won't be the same as the Ideal Steel. Anyone know the answer to this question? Anyone else have cat sizes from different stoves you want to share?

I was thinking the same thing about cat sizes, and how the manufacturers pick what size for a certain size stove build.
 
I believe this is how Blaze deals with the extra flow of a hot burn.
The Ideal Steel simply uses secondaries.

On the low end, the smaller cat should be sufficient.

Yes it makes sense for it to cost twice as much.

I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, "This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies." Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.
 
I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, "This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies." Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.

With the hybrid the cat sees less fuel as the secondary combustion system burns off a good percentage of the gasses inside the firebox, before they have a chance to get to the cat. This would result in a much better fire view for those that enjoy such a thing. It would also result in having an equal or greater heating efficiency at a greatly reduced cost.

I would equate it to an engine that was in better tune and not relying so much on the cat cleaning things up to meet emission standards.
 
I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, "This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies." Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.

The reality is that both are available to function at any time. It can still do a cat only burn. I say this because at a very slow setting, firebox temperatures fall below secondary thresholds. The glass goes completely black and hot spots develop on the top and front.

This is just a little harder to accomplish in this bitter weather as the increased draft favors more output. During shoulder season with less draft, it will definitely do a complete blackout with hot spots. It will in this weather too if you close the air almost completely.
 
I think with the graph you showed earlier, and the setting that I know Brian uses, he likely had it set in the range of cat and secondary.

Running on notch #2 in the spring will likely make that graph look totally different and less peaked.
 
I think with the graph you showed earlier, and the setting that I know Brian uses, he likely had it set in the range of cat and secondary.

Running on notch #2 in the spring will likely make that graph look totally different and less peaked.

Brian described that burn as a typical winter burn for his Ideal Steel. What you have just stated completely relates to the point I was trying to make about hybrid technology. If that burn was "cat and secondary" as you say and the results were as the graph represents, then there really is no point to hybrid technology in my opinion. And PLEASE understand, I am not trying to argue or down any particular stove. I just do not see the real world benefits. That is why I made the prediction that in a few short years, we will all look back and talk about the failure of hybrid technology (unless there is a major breakthrough).
 

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Like we have talked about before, it all depends on how big your house is, insulation, air sealing, chimney setup, wood quality etc...

There is a good chance that with your setup the Ideal Steel would burn much longer and even. There is a guy on the forum who burns 21-24 hour burn cycles in a very well insulated house. Brian (BDF) has made it clear that his chimney setup, wood quality, and insulation levels make things more challenging. His graphs are a great tool, but you need to figure that there are unseen variables.

Maybe if we installed your King in his house it would struggle and the graph would look the same. Then we would look back and say Blaze King was a failure ;) just kidding!!!

To each their own. Stay warm!
 
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