Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
That makes great sense. It is one thing to learn the name of a tree you work with regularly and another to determine the identity of a tree that you have never seen before.
Certified Tree Risk Assessor
- Thread starter Mike Cantolina
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That makes great sense. It is one thing to learn the name of a tree you work with regularly and another to determine the identity of a tree that you have never seen before.
Absolutely; my brain gets lazy when 90% of the trees I deal with are 9 species. By using a key I can look for those subtle differences that can make a big difference in assessing, climbing, pruning--red elm vs. american elm or mocker nut vs, shell bark hickories, for instance.
IF there had been copious contributions of images from members, every region would have had enough to show well, and regional ID would have been on an even footing. But very few members contribute--it's takes more energy to complain, but that seems to be a more popular activity.
But even with a lot of images, regional ID would not be "fair" on an international basis. After a month with eucs--and corymbias-- in oz, I can only ID a dozen or so, and those without much certainty. Without using a key, I'd've been daunted by the 100s of myrtaceae species. :msp_razz:
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Good stuff here. I can see it from all sides, if there are really any sides. But this is good and very interesting.
You have to be kidding me, I took the test when it had Tree ID & there were only 20 trees to ID...........perhaps if you are lazy 90% of the time & dont care to be able to ID trees......Cause "god forbid" its too hard......then you shouldnt call yourself an Arborist.
Can you imagine...........the plumber not knowing what kinda pipe, flux, flame is needed to do his job...........oh hell, electricians dont need to know circuit breakers or voltages & nurses.........well WTF, just poke em any where with the needle cause anatomy is not really something you should have to learn..............That is the absolute most STUPID excuse I have ever heard........& you wanna compare our trade to these???
I am literally appalled at what I have just read.......you guys would defend the necessity of a Cert to assess a trees risk & then would provide the de-balled donkey of an excuse like what I just read..........how laughable!
Yes ma`am Im an Arborist....Certified!!!, uh? No ma`am I cant tell you what kinda tree that is, but hey......would you like me to assess the risks your trees pose to you..........for instance, that one over there with the green leaves & doo hickeys on it, Um...thats got an inclusion thats split...........oh & that one with all the balls on it....
Go in & ask your mechanic if he can ID the motor in your car & if he says no..............ah just let em put whatever plugs & such in it...should run like a charm, funny how we expect the people in other trades to be knowledgeable & well rounded...but would lessen our trade by removing that which should be a basic requirement!!!
LXT..................
Can you imagine...........the plumber not knowing what kinda pipe, flux, flame is needed to do his job...........oh hell, electricians dont need to know circuit breakers or voltages & nurses.........well WTF, just poke em any where with the needle cause anatomy is not really something you should have to learn..............That is the absolute most STUPID excuse I have ever heard........& you wanna compare our trade to these???
I am literally appalled at what I have just read.......you guys would defend the necessity of a Cert to assess a trees risk & then would provide the de-balled donkey of an excuse like what I just read..........how laughable!
Yes ma`am Im an Arborist....Certified!!!, uh? No ma`am I cant tell you what kinda tree that is, but hey......would you like me to assess the risks your trees pose to you..........for instance, that one over there with the green leaves & doo hickeys on it, Um...thats got an inclusion thats split...........oh & that one with all the balls on it....
Go in & ask your mechanic if he can ID the motor in your car & if he says no..............ah just let em put whatever plugs & such in it...should run like a charm, funny how we expect the people in other trades to be knowledgeable & well rounded...but would lessen our trade by removing that which should be a basic requirement!!!
LXT..................
Funny how I contribute every chance I get.....from voting to providing surveys & other such things....how rarely such even comes around to the members...........But hey, I got my ISA special holiday catalog with all the wonderful discounts.(yeah right) ya see...theres a little more focus on making money & selling materials than making sure that those wanting certification are "Properly" educated!!!
LXT..............
Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
LXT, you are a hard task master! Perhaps you should come down under and teach Tree ID
In my home region there are over 3,000 species of trees. Knowing them all or even many of them, in my opinion, is not important. Over time the local arborists get use to a few hundred of the more common trees. I can probably only do about 30-40% of the trees in my region. Not very good hey! I believe that what is important is being able to identify a tree when it is important. What makes matters worse LXT, is that I work elsewhere including 6 other countries so I know less than 10% of the trees I may be asked to identify and sometimes I even get the identification wrong. By your standards, I must be a pretty bad arborist. What I can do, however, is identify a tree as far as possible using a key and based on the identifying features present at the time.
Using your Mechanic as an example, there are often subtle changes in vehicles even within a model and a year. Most mechanics will not be able to detect the differences or know the precise model without popping the bonnet. Most know how to pop the bonnet but there are arborists who do not know how to identify a tree if it is new to them. I am sure that almost all arborists on this forum could tell the difference between an oak and a eucalypt. However, knowing what species of oak or eucalypt it is will require the ability to key out a specimen using taxonomical skills rather than just being able to recognise the trees.
I agree that any arborist who has been working in an area for a while will get to know the trees they are working on but that does not make them good at identification. What makes a good arborist is one that knows when the identification of the tree is important to the decision making process. Take most arborists, myself included, out of their comfort zone and most they struggle to identify unknown trees. Knowing how to find and use an appropriate key when needed is far more valuable than learning the name of 20 or 50 local trees which is still a valuble skill.
Hey, you guys are the ones using the analogies, I just find it funny that you do such & compare it to our trade.........If the Nurse doesnt know how many mmgrams to give....He/She asks or looks it up & errors on the side of caution. But apparently in the Tree trade we just omitt those things...............
To suggest that tree Id be ommitted cause there are so many species is just ridiculous........this is why some of the veterans of the CA credential are questioning "when is enough, enough" over 25,000 Arbs out there & as stated in Arborist News: many are Certified who have never, climbed, trimmed or even raked a yard they`re certified because their job required it!!!
If you got your most recent edition of Arb news...its in there! what they have self admitted is the problem...kinda goes with what I have been saying about voluntary becoming mandatory uhh? so tell me....How does the office worker even meet the criteria to become a C A anyway........what kinda field experience did he/she get to meet those requirements....here is a problem in & of itself, many are certified who never met or can meet the initial criteria to even sit the exam!!!!!!!
You can try to justify the removal of a domain by spinning the analogies to serve your needs.........if the mechanic ruins your car due to lack of knowledge or poor workmanship...........he is liable!!, if a tree trimmer tops a tree & cant ID the tree he is working in? well.....far less ramifications there uh?
How can one be a consultant (internationally), how can one diagnose & provide remedy for anything tree related...........when the dumbass doesnt even know what tree species he is working on or being asked to work on? Thats just a laughable scenario.....No ones saying to know off by heart all tree species in the plant kingdom.............But c`mon.....you should atleast have the ability to know all the common major tree species & be able to determine the ID through a help aide!
Well now you can be a CA & : you dont have to climb, you dont have to prune, remove or work in a tree & better yet...you dont even need to know what kinda tree it is..............LMFAO, what a ####ing joke!!
LXT............................
To suggest that tree Id be ommitted cause there are so many species is just ridiculous........this is why some of the veterans of the CA credential are questioning "when is enough, enough" over 25,000 Arbs out there & as stated in Arborist News: many are Certified who have never, climbed, trimmed or even raked a yard they`re certified because their job required it!!!
If you got your most recent edition of Arb news...its in there! what they have self admitted is the problem...kinda goes with what I have been saying about voluntary becoming mandatory uhh? so tell me....How does the office worker even meet the criteria to become a C A anyway........what kinda field experience did he/she get to meet those requirements....here is a problem in & of itself, many are certified who never met or can meet the initial criteria to even sit the exam!!!!!!!
You can try to justify the removal of a domain by spinning the analogies to serve your needs.........if the mechanic ruins your car due to lack of knowledge or poor workmanship...........he is liable!!, if a tree trimmer tops a tree & cant ID the tree he is working in? well.....far less ramifications there uh?
How can one be a consultant (internationally), how can one diagnose & provide remedy for anything tree related...........when the dumbass doesnt even know what tree species he is working on or being asked to work on? Thats just a laughable scenario.....No ones saying to know off by heart all tree species in the plant kingdom.............But c`mon.....you should atleast have the ability to know all the common major tree species & be able to determine the ID through a help aide!
Well now you can be a CA & : you dont have to climb, you dont have to prune, remove or work in a tree & better yet...you dont even need to know what kinda tree it is..............LMFAO, what a ####ing joke!!
LXT............................
Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
If some one is topping a tree, the identity of the tree is probably not the issue of greatest concern. Testing plant identification is testing a person's memory and unfortunately it does not test their ability to identify an unknown tree. Perhaps I am oversimplifying but the times that identification is most critical relate to ecological and diagnostic (disease) issues, something that is not generally in the domain of the average CA.
I agree that you can become a CA without being a tree climber. Many consultants, foremen, sales staff and so on have never climbed and whilst this means that there is a lack of depth, the fact that they have their CA means that they have demonstrated that an appropriate understanding of the required material. Sure, that does not mean that they can climb or even use a chainsaw but many CA's cant use a microscope ... just like climbing, it is simply a different skill set.
Mark
=1. Non-climbers do miss a lot of depth, but so do climbers who lack other skills. Someone in a wheelchair can still be an arborist.
Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
I agree, many of our greats have not been climbers
Once again the point gets missed...!
read the criteria one must meet to become a CA & then tell me how a guy who works for PennDot (road worker) can become a CA or better yet........the lady who has worked clerical for the utility the past 5yrs filing paperwork & doing inter office work now qualifies to sit the CA exam?
A proper understanding of the material means one should be a CA? cause thats what Im getting outta what you just said! I would bet that just about any student in the 9th thru 12th grade level in high school could take the CA exam & pass it............whats that say about our credential? I mean after all its just a "proper understanding of the material" see this is why our trade will not be recognized the way we want it........a wheel chaired person as an arborist? how about a color blind electrician?
Ya see........there are no "Verified" qualifications to meet, any one with the ability to read can exaggerate about their experience, take the test & ...........well you get another unskilled CA Funny how now the analogies arent being used anymore.....lets see: nurses go to school take clinicals, have to pass boards, etc.. Plumbers/fitters take a weld test & pass state boards for licensing, mechanics must be ASE certified & have x # of hours hands on
why is it every other trade requires testing, class room hrs & Labs (hands on) except ours? truth be told & its in the numbers: The level of qualifications/skill is less so that obtaining the Cert is easier to be had & by creating/lobbying for it to be a job pre-requisite or obtained after employment is given (mandatorily) the Cert then becomes a profit maker for the Org. Cant dis-miss that!
LXT...............
read the criteria one must meet to become a CA & then tell me how a guy who works for PennDot (road worker) can become a CA or better yet........the lady who has worked clerical for the utility the past 5yrs filing paperwork & doing inter office work now qualifies to sit the CA exam?
A proper understanding of the material means one should be a CA? cause thats what Im getting outta what you just said! I would bet that just about any student in the 9th thru 12th grade level in high school could take the CA exam & pass it............whats that say about our credential? I mean after all its just a "proper understanding of the material" see this is why our trade will not be recognized the way we want it........a wheel chaired person as an arborist? how about a color blind electrician?
Ya see........there are no "Verified" qualifications to meet, any one with the ability to read can exaggerate about their experience, take the test & ...........well you get another unskilled CA Funny how now the analogies arent being used anymore.....lets see: nurses go to school take clinicals, have to pass boards, etc.. Plumbers/fitters take a weld test & pass state boards for licensing, mechanics must be ASE certified & have x # of hours hands on
why is it every other trade requires testing, class room hrs & Labs (hands on) except ours? truth be told & its in the numbers: The level of qualifications/skill is less so that obtaining the Cert is easier to be had & by creating/lobbying for it to be a job pre-requisite or obtained after employment is given (mandatorily) the Cert then becomes a profit maker for the Org. Cant dis-miss that!
LXT...............
Lets break this down! topping is an un acceptable practice....however, if it is going to be used I think tree ID is needed even more, what trees will take to such & potentially make it? would a white oak handle being topped as well a silver maple? some species you can get away with doing more to than others (bad or good)
We dont need to test a persons memory, we need to test their abilities!! all around abilities! I dont believe that one can have an appropriate understanding of the "Material" if they have never applied what the "Material" says,
If what you say is true?, then many sections of study should be eliminated: why have a domain(s) on tree support & protection systems, tree selection, safety or climbing & working in trees.....?
I mean hell.........if you dont have to actually work in trees then safety regarding such is a moot point & if we dont have to work in trees then all practices associated with tree work should be eliminated....according to you two!
An Arborist(s) abilities/skills are to be applied to all aspects pertaining to tree care within its natural setting, The Microscope analogy takes things to a cellular level & beyond.............I dont think Lab time would be a bad thing for a CA..........however I think that is why they have a Horticulture/Biologist field...........ya know they`re the Doctors & we are the Nurses!!
So at one time those who advocated for a stricter rule set pertaining to the CA (even have a code of ethics) Now would advocate for the elimination of a basic principal that has been the staple of the Certification in the first place....Tree ID & on top of that lets create another Certification which by definition is presented or was in the study guide from the start! The rationale from you two is that of a staggering drunk...................It makes no sense!
LXT................I once argued against this cert & now argue for it & its standard to be raised....while others who once defended it now argue for the standard to be lessened..............go figure!!!
Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
I think perhaps I may have miscommunicated. I am not against raising the bar, I am not against higher standards. The CA program is what it is, complete with problems. Essentially if you pass the exam and maintain the CEUs then you meet the requirements regardless of what you do for a living. If you want something more challenging that sets you apart from the masses there is the BMCA or go get a degree. The CA is the lowest level of certification for arborists, not the upper end. It is like having a private pilots license ... you can fly and you need to keep recent but you may not have your night and instrument ratings and you are certainly not a 747 check captain.
As for the ID issue, I would rather have an arborist who can identify any unknown tree than an arborist that can recognise and name 100 trees. I believe that over time the first person will pick up and recognise more trees than the person who needs someone else to identify the trees but has good visual recognition and or memory skills.
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Maybe Im mis-communicating? to become a CA there are requirements one must have before setting the exam........if you dont have em...you dont sit it till you do (this is problem #1) The CA has BECOME the lower level Certification over time! it use to be a very respected credential to have & was ISA`s proclaimed "Hallmark"
Its no were near like having a pilots license.........see key term there is License which is a state mandated requirement, Not a certification that will mean less tommorrow than it does today! wish every state did like Mass.
The ID issue is no issue.............if you cant atleast ID trees when apparently you dont have to be able to do any of the other functions associated with being an an Arborist then go do something else, cause "NOW" you dont have to work in a tree, you dont have to ID trees............then what is the meaning of the CERT to begin with?.....apparently just to be able to call yourself a CA!
I would ask you re-read some of my previous posts & touch on the key points within them!
LXT..................
Pelorus
Uva uvam vivendo varia fit
Former buddy of mine became ISA CA by virtue of working at a Club Link golf course for 6 or 7 months.
Zero previous tree work experience/minimal knowledge.
Kinda cheapens the credential when a big corporation can fudge little details to circumvent prerequisites & nobody is the wiser.
Zero previous tree work experience/minimal knowledge.
Kinda cheapens the credential when a big corporation can fudge little details to circumvent prerequisites & nobody is the wiser.
Corymbia
ArboristSite Operative
sgreanbeans
Treeaculterologist
Have been wanting to chime in, but you guys are all over this! I think, that if you are a CA, you should be able to do all aspects of the job, while you shouldn't try and remember every single species, you had darn well better know the majority of them, in your region.
I think there should be field testing on the test. I don't think someone in a lab should get it, that's a botanist. I agree the test is too easy. I also think that these different certs are good, but feel that if you get your BCMA, then your done. No more needed, at that point, you should know all or know where to find the info. I know of several guys who studied the book over a winter, had little to no experience in the field, they passed. Recently I bid against them on a pin oak, I seen the written bid from them, they had it listed as a silver maple. 3 CA's did that! WTF? Tree ID is very important. They need to put it back. When a HO calls a CA, they expect that person to know all aspects or have a in depth knowledge of all the basics. Not a hot chick with high heels and her nails done, who has never been in a tree. I think that maybe the ISA made it a bit easier, so they could get more annual memberships, then hope that the hardcore go after all the other certs to separate themselves from the basic Arborist
I think there should be field testing on the test. I don't think someone in a lab should get it, that's a botanist. I agree the test is too easy. I also think that these different certs are good, but feel that if you get your BCMA, then your done. No more needed, at that point, you should know all or know where to find the info. I know of several guys who studied the book over a winter, had little to no experience in the field, they passed. Recently I bid against them on a pin oak, I seen the written bid from them, they had it listed as a silver maple. 3 CA's did that! WTF? Tree ID is very important. They need to put it back. When a HO calls a CA, they expect that person to know all aspects or have a in depth knowledge of all the basics. Not a hot chick with high heels and her nails done, who has never been in a tree. I think that maybe the ISA made it a bit easier, so they could get more annual memberships, then hope that the hardcore go after all the other certs to separate themselves from the basic Arborist
I think we all agree the CA test, and the CEU criteria, should be strengthened.
Factcheck: ISA certs do NOT require membership. I know several CA's who lapsed their membership.
Maybe you 2 are confusing it with ASCA.
Like Jeff, I'm calling BS on 3 CA's not knowing a pin oak from a silver maple. There's something missing from that story--no offense, sg.
And again, field testing and ID are not in the test because they cannot be taught or checked the same for everybody, so they would not be "fair". I don't like this either. If anyone here knows how to do that, they could run the whole show. It's done in oz but their cert is hugely expensive.
Factcheck: ISA certs do NOT require membership. I know several CA's who lapsed their membership.
Maybe you 2 are confusing it with ASCA.
Like Jeff, I'm calling BS on 3 CA's not knowing a pin oak from a silver maple. There's something missing from that story--no offense, sg.
And again, field testing and ID are not in the test because they cannot be taught or checked the same for everybody, so they would not be "fair". I don't like this either. If anyone here knows how to do that, they could run the whole show. It's done in oz but their cert is hugely expensive.
