Chainsaws In Wilderness

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Warshington
Well, if they are planting trees why not? The FS should declare one week for chainsaws in the wilderness and those who don't want to hear them could stay out. I bet a lot of trail clearing could get done. When I've been on one end of a crosscut, I find myself thinking that I'd be done with the tree if I had The Barbie Saw.

Trails Of Trouble On Wild Lands | Northwest Public Radio

Of course, then there is the packing in of the gear and fuel problem. A horse would be needed or maybe a goat?
 
Gehrke: “I think from an ecological standpoint, they are the place we see nature functioning as it’s supposed to. Fires, floods - whatever you want to call it.”

To which I would argue: "wilderness" is, by definition, wild. A trail is a human luxury. If it's truly "wild", it's not a convenient place to relax and unwind. Get over it. Either let it be wild, or accept the logical fallacy that humans somehow deserve easy access there along with the corollary that access costs "wildness". Buck that mess out and be done with it.

Hippies. Ha-freakin'-rrumph.
 
They can get waivers for serious blowdown. They did that on he Petes Creek Trail in the Colonel Bob Wilderness. My dad went to school with the retired cutter that did most of the clean up. He was with the Back Country Horsemen. There were so many large blowdowns it was an almost daunting task with crosscuts. The trail was largely impassable to hikers and absolutely impassable with horses.

I agree however that a week period would get allot of trails open. Granted they will require people to go through the safety classes and it will require some bigger saws to get it done. Therefore requiring experienced people beyond just a safety class in my humble opinion. I helped a family friend maintain a FS trail up the Humptulips below Colonel Bob for some community service hours for some school thing. We weren't in the wilderness area so we used weed wackers and some swede axes. My dad went along and the region forester was with us also. He brought his saw and when he hesitated to cut this one tree my dad offered to do it and did. Was a leaner alder. Just goes to show that even certified people have their limitations. The guy was hesitant at first. My point here is that people with authority and lack of experience are often doubtful about others and make decisions based upon this misguided thinking if you will. Probably not the best way to articulate my thought but best I can do for now.

Most of the crosscut trail clearing in the Cascades is done in conjunction with horsemen I believe; as packing in a crosscut for miles and miles would be a PITA. I know being able to use a chainsaw to clear them would make life easier. I've pulled a crosscut before and have the same feelings as hatte.

I like the idea of having a designated period for doing this that way the noise wouldn't be a constant thing in the woods and still keep with the spirit of wilderness area. Wilderness is wilderness but the fact is we have trails there and to keep them open it makes sense to use the easiest and most economical means to do so.

I also think that this has more merit than planting a measly 1000 trees in wilderness. Using saws is definitely in more truer spirit since they will be used to clear already established trails not making new ones.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Good idear Patty!

Wes
 
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There are places here in NC which have a no internal combustion engine rule. For example, Joyce Kilmer forest, supposed home of the last remaining OG wood on the east. Instead of sawing hazard trees, they use explosives. No directional fall to potentially save near by trees. And there are a ton of trees up there which have been blown up.

So we go in the woods like we are 6 sheets to the wind with a sack of dynamite and blow trees off the stump because it is better for mother earth. I don't care what they doo or how they do it. What bugs me is that they think that they are really doing right. Hell they could use crosscut and ax. Oh wait no one has a clue or the gumption to do it that way.

#### the govt.... Inept asses.....
 
First of all, what is wilderness? Oh, right, it's just an anthropogenic label; a concept that was made into reality only by the legality of 1960s political-feel good legislation.

Secondly, as fragmented as current landscapes are (be they deserts, forests, grasslands, etc.), it's only a matter of time before a fenced off "wilderness" area becomes overwhelmingly invaded by invasive plants and animals. Fragmented landscapes require much more work to preserve and keep "pristine", or in a state similar to whatever they were historically; and at some point, the on-going work defeats the purpose of a wilderness.

And lastly, everyone should read this book:
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I tried to get some of the USFS guys here to consider my battery powered chainsaw for wilderness trail work. Went over like a flooded STIHL (a non-starter).

They say that they like using explosives to mitigate hazard trees because it leaves a rough finish - more natural that a saw kerf. I think that they just like playing with explosives . . .

Philbert
 
Wilderness areas have weeds pulled, overused areas revegetated, bridges built, and some even have old cabins, mines, and the Pasayton has an old airstrip. Some of the newer established areas are so close to highways that you can hear the traffic--which was why they weren't declared wilderness in the first round.

More areas are proposed.

There is a difference in the way the two agencies manage their wilderness. The Park Service, those people who wear the Dudley Do Right hats, allow chainsaws to be used to clear trails. The Forest Service, the people without those hats, do not. The local office did not even allow a volunteer crew to carry their chainsaws through a small part of the Goat Rocks in order to get to a non-wilderness trail. :msp_ohmy:

Meanwhile, we have people who can't read maps or compasses going into country that they wouldn't be able to a few years ago, with GPS units, cell phones, SPOT(emergency transmitter), ultra high tech metal hiking poles, not to mention the various synthetics that make their packs light enough to get in a ways.

A week of chainsaw noise? Heck, they won't notice it because they'll have their music plugged into their ears. Or their phones. I was amazed at the number of folks hiking plugged into music while we were working on a heavily used trail in the wilderness.

The ultimate crew would be some timber fallers.:bowdown: In fact, I have wondered whether it would be cheaper to pay them to do work for a week, because it would/should be faster than any crew of "certified" buckers or volunteers. They'd have a support crew--a packer and some bodies to throw the chunks off the trail.

But that won't happen.
 
There is a difference in the way the two agencies manage their wilderness. The Park Service, those people who wear the Dudley Do Right hats, allow chainsaws to be used to clear trails. The Forest Service, the people without those hats, do not.

Sooooo . . . you're suggesting it is a case of 'hat envy'?

Some old grudge against a Mountie, or maybe Smokey pooped in their woods . . . . .?

Maybe insert some George Carlin routine here about the differences between a 'park' and a 'forest'?

Just curious.

Philbert
 
Sooooo . . . you're suggesting it is a case of 'hat envy'?

Some old grudge against a Mountie, or maybe Smokey pooped in their woods . . . . .?

Maybe insert some George Carlin routine here about the differences between a 'park' and a 'forest'?

Just curious.

Philbert

Nope. The two agencies get mixed up, with most mixed up people thinking that National Forest IS a National Park. And many want to make it that way. I try to keep it simple when explaining the difference and the hat thing is an easy way--although the Forest Service LEOs have Smokey Bear Hats. Maybe I should have used Smokey Bear Hats, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.

Just read where they were able to use chainsaws on selected trails on the Inyo in official wilderness. I think that the NEPA process has to be gone through? Who knows? Apparently a massive amount of folks were upset over a massive amount of windthrow that occurred so people played well together to get the trails cleared.
 
How 'bout we put some welfare recipients on the end of the crosscuts and let them earn their supper? That explosive thing is BS

Only if they wanted to. Have you every worked with people who don't want to work? It is hard on everybody--and the people who don't want to work work harder at trying not to work.. It is unfair and frustrating for the people in charge and the other folks who are wanting to do a good and efficient job.

Besides, safety is a concern no matter what powers the saws. I want to be on the end of the saw with somebody who has their mind on what they are doing, not on how to get out of what they are doing.
 
Only if they wanted to. Have you every worked with people who don't want to work? It is hard on everybody--and the people who don't want to work work harder at trying not to work.. It is unfair and frustrating for the people in charge and the other folks who are wanting to do a good and efficient job.

Besides, safety is a concern no matter what powers the saws. I want to be on the end of the saw with somebody who has their mind on what they are doing, not on how to get out of what they are doing.

How 'bout if we make eating contingent on wanting to work??????????????/ Yes, I know what you are saying. I used to have a guy I sent on break to get us caught up because I could do both jobs faster than I would with his help
 
Nope. The two agencies get mixed up, with most mixed up people thinking that National Forest IS a National Park. And many want to make it that way. I try to keep it simple when explaining the difference and the hat thing is an easy way--although the Forest Service LEOs have Smokey Bear Hats. Maybe I should have used Smokey Bear Hats, but the coffee hadn't kicked in yet.

Just read where they were able to use chainsaws on selected trails on the Inyo in official wilderness. I think that the NEPA process has to be gone through? Who knows? Apparently a massive amount of folks were upset over a massive amount of windthrow that occurred so people played well together to get the trails cleared.

Yupp NEPA has to be followed. Although there are some cases that they can get away without a NEPA but I don't know the ins and outs of that.

Yea in some ways the NPS has it better than the FS. It's plain and simple that our National Forests are becoming defacto wilderness areas and wilderness areas is almost another word for park except you can hunt in them and a few other things. Shoot you can hunt in the park if they are using it as a management tool!
 
As one who's cleared hundreds of blowdowns from trails with a crosscut saw, I can only say that people who want to experience the tranquility of the backcountry should volunteer some time to help with the sawing. Most trail crews I know of are composed of a few dedicated individuals with the skills and tools to get the job done and would welcome some volunteers to help with the work. Properly filed, a crosscut saw is no misery whip.
 
As one who's cleared hundreds of blowdowns from trails with a crosscut saw, I can only say that people who want to experience the tranquility of the backcountry should volunteer some time to help with the sawing. Most trail crews I know of are composed of a few dedicated individuals with the skills and tools to get the job done and would welcome some volunteers to help with the work. Properly filed, a crosscut saw is no misery whip.

Screw tranquility...that's for after work. When there's serious wood to be cut I want a power saw. God invented those things for a reason.
 
Screw tranquility...that's for after work. When there's serious wood to be cut I want a power saw. God invented those things for a reason.

Whats that old argument ? If a tree falls in the forest cut by a powersaw andthe enviromentolist isn there to here it,does it really make a sound ?
 
I don't find much tranquility WORKING in the wilderness with a crew. If I crave tranquility, I can get up at 0 dark thirty and hang out on my porch, or head out to the woods where there aren't any trophy peaks, or trails, or lakes that the hordes head to for bragging rights.

We're kind of lucky that we are not as close to Pugetropolis as others are.

This is not in the wilderness.
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Wilderness is part of the multiple use concept sacrifice area. Keeps the like minds closer together, easier to manage, you know.

Others enjoy seeing cattle or domsetic sheep grazing on public lands. Some like digging it up. Others cut it down & build stuff with it.

It's always tough to manage those transition areas.
 

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