Clearing land of trees destroyed by wildfires?

[softdown]

^^^Excellent input - thanks.

Brush can mean a lot of different things.

May have to buy new simply because it is proving very hard to find:
High flow - and I'd prefer very high flow - about 100 hp instead of the 75 hp minimum
Level II cab protection - forestry rated preferred
Tracks instead of wheels
Disc mulcher - almost all are drum

Getting my artwork designed - giving it a whirl.

 

[pdqdl]

I've not ever seen that disk mulcher before. That looks like something else.

I see a few problems, and a few advantages. Disk style devices have a much greater velocity due to their greater diameter. This causes them to shatter & grind up wood smoother and into smaller pieces, albeit with a need for greater control over the feed rate. That greater diameter also predicates that the hydraulic motors have a lower mechanical advantage over that long radius, so they have much less torque against the wood they are striking, and almost certainly a slower recovery time for the same size hydraulic system driving it.

I don't know, but I'll bet the disk device shatters a lot more teeth on a regular day than the drum style. Why?
1. They are traveling faster.
2. They will have a massive amount of force applied with that spinning disk. When that hits a rock, something will have to give.
3. The horizontal disk means that rebounding off of rocks and other ground obstructions will shake hell out of the machine carrying it. A drum-style of brush chipper will bounce up and over immovable objects, whereas the horizontal grinder will be trapped into digging in and throwing the carrier sideways or bouncing backwards.
4. Until they hit something too big, I think they would work quite a bit more effectively than the drum style chippers, that seem to be engineered around the concept of "pounding the ground". It might be easier to miss rocks with that machine.
5. I would expect to see some really surprising gyroscopic effects rattle that machine when it tries to change the tilt on that huge flywheel.

 

[softdown]

Drum mulchers currently dominate by multitudes. I see the disc as quite a bit faster in operation and providing more irregular shaped mulch. A downside is that material can get ejected a long distance so unusable around houses and machinery. Kind of expecting to need a medium drum mulcher for those environments.

Carbide teeth are available on the bottom. Recommended for rocky environs. Successfully navigating irregular terrain should be a bit of a "dance".

I could retire if I didn't invest in a lot of expensive equipment. Many reasons for going "all in" this time around. Guess I still need challenge to function optimally. Boredom is my greatest adversary.

 

[softdown]

Some mulchers have restrictions on hydraulic pressure and, I think, flow rate. Some "high flow" skid steers are only 32gpm where as the mulchers call for at least 35gpm - so they likely do best with at least 40gpm.

Shatterproof cabs is something that seems to be - never mentioned. Technically called Level II protection with Forestry rating the best. Forestry rating means additional protection for headlights etc.

Thinking the odds of finding what I want in used equipment - within 1500 miles may not look promising at this time.

I need a consultation with somebody who knows a lot more than I. So I don't waste time on the wrong skid steers or mulchers etc.

Funny that zero sales reps have responded to my inquiries. They likely have no close matches at this time.

Forestry Trader has a LOT of "Call for Price" nonsense going on.

 

[capetrees]

Some mulchers have restrictions on hydraulic pressure and, I think, flow rate. Some "high flow" skid steers are only 32gpm where as the mulchers call for at least 35gpm - so they likely do best with at least 40gpm.

Shatterproof cabs is something that seems to be - never mentioned. Technically called Level II protection with Forestry rating the best. Forestry rating means additional protection for headlights etc.

Thinking the odds of finding what I want in used equipment - within 1500 miles may not look promising at this time.

I need a consultation with somebody who knows a lot more than I. So I don't waste time on the wrong skid steers or mulchers etc.

Funny that zero sales reps have responded to my inquiries. They likely have no close matches at this time.

Forestry Trader has a LOT of "Call for Price" nonsense going on.

Often times, if you run a mulcher, they have an additional hydraulic cooler. The flow of those machines heats the hydraulics more than a usual attachment.

You might be looking for a fecon, a dedicated clearing machine

https://www.fecon.com/tractors/tracked-mulching-ftx-200/
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/list/manufacturer/fecon

 

[softdown]

Makes little sense to buy new heavy equipment - by my way of thinking. No assurance that the business takes off - I've had some success and some failures.

So buying a used drum mulcher and skid steer is probably the way to go. Probably. There seems to be 50 times more availability for one thing.

 

[softdown]

Made a good offer on a CAT 299 with forestry package. Without attachments I should be able to haul back with existing equipment. Very heavy skid steer nonetheless. Time to get the new tires put on the equipment trailer.

 

[softdown]

Often times, if you run a mulcher, they have an additional hydraulic cooler. The flow of those machines heats the hydraulics more than a usual attachment.

You might be looking for a fecon, a dedicated clearing machine

https://www.fecon.com/tractors/tracked-mulching-ftx-200/
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/list/manufacturer/fecon

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273423103438?hash=item3fa94975ce:g:7SUAAOSwXn5bfsfY
Sure - if I had government contracts. Those things also weigh around 18,000 pounds. New truck - tractor really and trailer.

Great for open areas but I'm in the mountains where being smaller and more nimble comes into play. Plus I can carry logs with a skid steer.

 

[softdown]

Pfft - the youtube videos show the bright side of it. Now for the underbelly:
EXPENSIVE equipment in a very harsh environment. A lot of very expensive maintenance is often required.
Only dealership around is Deere and their skid steers do not seem to be recommended for this highly specialized work. Seems to come down to Cat, Bobcat and a couple much smaller names. ASV is made for this work but very high mtce expenses are often cited. Cat is no picnic there either.

Going to need a wider equipment trailer and likely a larger truck. Both of mine will "almost" do it.

 

[pdqdl]

I watched a utility clearance machine at work once. It was truly awesome. Fast, powerful, and the operator told me it was fairly low maintenance. He seemed quite pleased to have an admirer, and showed me the features.

It was just a great big heavy duty mower mounted on an articulating wheel loader that had been adapted a bit for low-center-of-gravity. As I recall, it mowed a path about 12' wide, and each of the rotary blades on the bottom were made of steel that was 2 inches thick. It had two large hydraulic motors on the top to drive the two spindles. It could casually mow a thicket of 2" caliper trees about like a little untility tractor with a 5' wide mower can go through horseweeds. Not fast, but it did the job and didn't break anything.

I was really surprised at how comfortably it navigated the nasty slopes that seem to the rule beneath a high-power utility line, too.

 

[softdown]

I watched a utility clearance machine at work once. It was truly awesome. Fast, powerful, and the operator told me it was fairly low maintenance. He seemed quite pleased to have an admirer, and showed me the features.

It was just a great big heavy duty mower mounted on an articulating wheel loader that had been adapted a bit for low-center-of-gravity. As I recall, it mowed a path about 12' wide, and each of the rotary blades on the bottom were made of steel that was 2 inches thick. It had two large hydraulic motors on the top to drive the two spindles. It could casually mow a thicket of 2" caliper trees about like a little untility tractor with a 5' wide mower can go through horseweeds. Not fast, but it did the job and didn't break anything.

I was really surprised at how comfortably it navigated the nasty slopes that seem to the rule beneath a high-power utility line, too.

Wheeled loaders are fine when the terrain is usually gently sloped - as compared to the mountains. Rotary blades are fine - maybe up to 3 or 4 ". I don't know the cut off. But I am in the mountains where the terrain is often not gentle at all.

But the mountains only present one cutting challenge - trees. Pine, spruce and aspen - soft woods but so plentiful. I might consider backing out of this endeavor with intact wallet but I'm already in with the hydraulic sawmill and the bucket and dump trucks. The bright side is that I can harvest some of the larger trees for either firewood or lumber. The pine beetle destroyed a large percentage however. Rotten wood is just worthless.

Aw well - know a business where the owners usually say "This is paradise. Easy, safe money with minor investment." Everybody grumbles.

 

[pdqdl]

I don't think you believed my comments! The machine I described could mow down 4" trees like they were weeds. I don't know what the upper end was for that machine, but I believe it was capable of gnawing up almost any size of tree with a bit of patience. Like the excavator mounted tree mulchers, it would just have to slow down more for bigger trees. The machine I described was probably quite comfortable on a 1:2 slope (26.6°) unless it was wet. It was also probably way out of your budget, which seems to be somewhat beside the point, as I have been unable to find such a machine on today's market. Like I said, this was many years ago.

You should understand too, that I have a long history of running wheeled machines on severe slopes. I think you might be surprised to learn that they can go almost anywhere the bulldozers can go, depending upon how they are configured. While it has always been very uncomfortable, I've been running normal farm tractors with the wheels set wide on slopes as steep as 1:2 (rise:run), the upper limit for installed grades on highway embankments. I once rolled a tracked bobcat down a slope my tractor would have been safe on, too, but that was an operator error.

If you go any steeper than 1:1, even the slope dozers are probably going to slide off the hill. I found this little tidbit of information regarding using dozers in fire control situations up in the mountains: "As a general guideline, dozers should not be operated across slopes (sidehill) greater than 45 percent (24°), uphill slopes greater than 55 percent, or downhill on slopes greater than 75 percent (36.8°) (see Figure 1)."

I think any tracked brush mulching machine you obtain will have similar restrictions.

When you finally get a machine, you might consider getting one of these:

or

As you can see, they come in many configurations, too. I used to carry around a pocket transit and a 2x4. I could set the board on a hill and then measure the slope. Using that technique, I would know whether or not my machines could navigate the hill, or if I needed to make a different plan.

 

[softdown]

Flats are also a big concern. I have shattered tires on cut stumps.

If tires are so great then why do experienced mulching operators pay big bucks for tracks and the ensuing high maintenance expenses? Especially lauding steel tracks because the rubber tracks get chewed up? Forestry mulching may be the most severe environment of them all.

 

[capetrees]

https://www.bobcat.com/loaders/compact-track-loaders/models/t870/features
Buddy has one, a BEAST.

The tracks are tough but certainly not as durable as metal tracks. Whatever the cost of tracks and maintenance, that gets mixed into the cost of the jobs.
Are you able to get a long term contract? So long as the first contract pays for the equipment, the rest is generally gravy.

 

[pdqdl]

Flats are also a big concern. I have shattered tires on cut stumps.

If tires are so great then why do experienced mulching operators pay big bucks for tracks and the ensuing high maintenance expenses? Especially lauding steel tracks because the rubber tracks get chewed up? Forestry mulching may be the most severe environment of them all.

Yep. Flats are always a problem. That is why they make these:


Many years ago, I bought a specialized tractor for right-of-way mowing. It came with some logging/skidder tires that were really remarkable! They were 22 plies of kevlar! They only got a couple of flats in years of rough mowing, but they were pure hell to change once you finally managed to pucture them. I tried to keep buying them, but the available sizes generally don't fit ag tractors. That and the fact that nobody in this area buys them. And yes! They are quite expensive. The money they save in flats makes them the cheapest tire available if you are in a tire-hazard environment.

I still have one sitting around that fits my tractor, and I am waiting for the current tire to wear out so I can mount it up. It was left over from one of my roadside tractors. I kept the fancy tire when I traded the tractor in.

Yes. I do my own tire repairs. When you do your own repairs, flat tires are not quite as worthy an item of concern as to what machine to buy.
Tire guys think they are special and worth lots of money. I know I'm not that special, and I work too hard for my money to give it to them. Furthermore, I can almost always fix a tire quicker than a road service truck will even show up, and they might not go out in the adverse conditions to where the machine is broke down.

 

[pdqdl]

Tracks do have some advantages. They don't go flat, and they have lower ground pressure. They are also higher expense and far more difficult to do field repairs on. Given the popularity of rubber mounted equipment, I'm pretty sure tires are the best option unless you really must have the tracks.

Tires do come with a few distinct advantages: they are far cheaper to operate per mile or per hour, unless they are being destroyed by the operating conditions. Perhaps most importantly, they are just plain faster. They also allow road travel and aren't nearly as destructive to pavement or terrain under normal circumstances. In soft terrain, they sink quicker and get stuck. That being said, getting stuck in the mud, wheeled machines are less likely to become disabled. Ever try to put a track back on a machine when it is buried in 2' of mud?
On rocks, however, tires have better traction and tend to preserve your machine rather than grinding it down and shaking the operator to exhaustion.

As with all machine features, there is a place for them, and places you shouldn't even try.






I don't think the Forestry industry is dead set against tires, either.

 

[pdqdl]

If I was looking at a smaller machine to clear brush and I was worried about the terrain, I think I'd look real hard at this little contraption.
https://www.seppi.com/en-us/mulcher...lchers-for-compact-loaders/microforst-rc.html

I'm sure it has lower productivity than the bigger machines, but I can see it doing wonders on steep slopes. Maybe just as a buggy to tote stuff up to the guy with the chainsaw, or as a small skidder where nothing else can go.

"Mulches wood up to 15 cm"

 

[pdqdl]

Hmmm. More of these things available than I was aware of.

 

[softdown]

You make a strong argument for tires. Im also a big fan of chains and winches with doublers.
I also have an unmounted new set of tires for my old Case DH4 though they are unlikely to be the right size.
So VERY MUCH to learn. So many options all with pros and cons of course.

 

[softdown]

https://www.bobcat.com/loaders/compact-track-loaders/models/t870/features
Buddy has one, a BEAST.

The tracks are tough but certainly not as durable as metal tracks. Whatever the cost of tracks and maintenance, that gets mixed into the cost of the jobs.
Are you able to get a long term contract? So long as the first contract pays for the equipment, the rest is generally gravy.

No contract. My "in" is being a member of a gated community that lost a LOT of lots due to a huge wildfire.
There is another mulcher working but he is backed up due to demand.
The 2020 wildfire scene means plenty of work. If i have to travel to California i can do that.
The sheer cost of mulching equipment keeps many at bay.