Conduit Rope Savers

[Erie Buoy]

I've done a lot of reading on these forums in the past few months and find them to be very informative -- so complete in fact that I've not needed to make a post until now since I'm still a relative newcomer to recreational climbing.

I saw the Dan House Rope Saver at New Tribe and decided I could make my own rather than pay $25 for one. So, I bought a 30" section of 3/4" flexible conduit at Lowe's and pressed some PVC bushings in each end. The rope goes through the saver just fine, plenty of room to spare and not much friction.

I tried it out in the tree today and wasn't able to get my homemade rope saver to stay in the crotch -- on ascent it would pull out of the crotch and onto the running end of my DdRT setup and on the descent it would fall off of the limb and onto the working leg of the rope. Can anyone tell me if this experience is consistent with the Dan House Rope Saver (DHRS)? If the DHRS does work well, what is the magic? I know that there are other types of plastic covered conduit -- can anyone describe what type is used for the DHRS? Is the DHRS "pre-bent" in some way to make it stay in the crotch better? I guess I could spend $25 to find out, but I'd rather spend it on something I know I can't make . . .

 

[Guardabosques]

I haven't been climbing very long, but I use the Dan House Rope Saver with no problems so far. I'm curious about the bushings and conduit that you use, though. Is it possible that because of internal ridges there is little friction until your body weight is applied? Can you post a picture?

Lucas

 

[Guardabosques]

I posted a pic of the Dan House Rope Saver. It is made with a very flexible metal conduit coated with a black rubber or plastic that looks like electrical tape. The ends are fitted with metal ferrules from an electrical supply store. They have a few wraps of electrical tape to hold them on. It isn't very high tech, there aren't any PVC parts on it, or any plastic aside from the coating.

I had the same thought as you: I bought one so I can figure out how to make them in the future. You just need the right ferrules--and make sure the rope isn't grabbing. It shouldn't be slipping off, that sounds odd.

Lucas

 

[Erie Buoy]

Thanks for the reply and photograph, Guardabosques -- it's really helpful. The conduit that I used is Carlon Carflex Liquidtight Flexible Tubing, which is readily available at my local Lowe's. I got the 3/4" stuff. It is made completely of plastic materials, and has a structural layer that is coated inside and out with another type of plastic. There aren't any ridges in the stuff I'm using.

Looking now at the *.pdf brochure linked above, maybe I need the the stuff they call Carflex X-Flex, which looks more similar to what's in your picture. With the stuff I'm using, I suspect that there is too much friction between the rope and the inside of the plastic conduit. Also, as you mentioned, the ridges reduce the rope-sleeve contact area which reduces the friction between the rope and conduit. All a fancy way of saying that I bet the rope runs a lot smoother in the metal conduit.

I might try the metal conduit at Lowe's, as long as one pressed a fitting in the end (or just covered it with duct tape?) to protect the rope from any sharp edges. I wonder if having a plastic coated exterior is very important?

This stuff is available at Lowe's -- maybe I'll try it next although it looks a bit thin -- not sure how long it'll last. I'm sure the Carflex X-Flex isn't at Lowe's, but maybe I can find it online in small quantities somewhere. Does anyone see any problems with using a bare metal conduit, as long as the ends of the conduit are sufficiently "dressed?"

 

[Guardabosques]

The conduit in the picture I posted is pretty thin, but rather durable. The metal ferrules are about an inch in length, and if you remove them the metal of the conduit is sharp and jagged. I wouldn't risk running 100+ dollars worth of rope through anything less than a sure thing. Duct tape is good for emergencies, but the ferules press in nicely--and are supposedly cheap. Especially considering the price of rope.

As far as friction goes, it is minimal. This conduit seems to be great stuff as it is light and stores away nicely in my pack. I would love to know if you find something like this, or something better.

Lucas

 

[Erie Buoy]

Oops, I edited my post as you were replying. Any idea if the plastic coating on the outside of your sleeve is important for function? Does it help protect the tree better?

If one found or made the ferrules, would just regular flexible metal conduit work? Lowe's does carry that. Haven't found the metal ferrules there, though.

 

[Guardabosques]

I don't imagine the plastic is essential, but it looks pretty slick. The conduit on the site below looks exactly like the stuff. I was told that the ferrules can be found at an electrical supply store--not a hardware store. Also they said that you want to make sure to take a piece of the conduit with you for fitting because it is important to get a good fit.



http://www.flex-tubes.com/flexible-metal-conduit.html

I looked at the Home Depot site and they have a similar looking conduit that is aluminum. The stuff in the above site is galvanized steel I believe, and is resistant to water and what not. I'm sure the steel is stronger too. Check it out, I didn't find a price on the steel though. The aluminum at HD is cheap.

Lucas

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I looked at the Home Depot site and they have a similar looking conduit that is aluminum. ... The aluminum at HD is cheap.

I'd be concerned about wearing through the aluminum. Your first clue could be when it slices through your rope!

:jawdrop:

 

[Fireaxman]

I'd be concerned about wearing through the aluminum. Your first clue could be when it slices through your rope!

:jawdrop:

Amen! Aluminum or any other metal. And it sounds like it would most likely happen deep in the bend, where you could not see it.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to re-engineer; especially on life critical paraphenalia.

 

[moss]

Absolutely don't use aluminum conduit. What we're talking about here is 3/4" liquid tight flex-steel conduit (with a pvc exterior). Anything less is not good enough. You can't put the ferrule (liquid tight connector) on the steel only conduit. Also the PVC protects the flex steel against weather/rust.

The only liquid tight conduit that will stay on a branch is what's called "Type VF". (very flexible, small minimum bend radius ). It cannot be found at Lowes, Home Depot or most real electrical equipment suppliers. If you want it you'll probably have to order minimum 100 ft.

Locating the correct ferrule can be very difficult. If you're lucky your local electrical supplier will have what you need but only a small percentage of liquid tight connector brands have a what it takes: rounded shoulder on the outside, smooth and clean inside connection to the pipe.

It's not worth the time, energy, gas etc. etc. to make 3 or 4 of these correctly. The Dan House sleeve at $28 is an excellent deal. If you anticipate needing a lot of these, then dive in and start working on it

 

[moss]

I posted a pic of the Dan House Rope Saver. It is made with a very flexible metal conduit coated with a black rubber or plastic that looks like electrical tape. The ends are fitted with metal ferrules from an electrical supply store. They have a few wraps of electrical tape to hold them on. It isn't very high tech, there aren't any PVC parts on it, or any plastic aside from the coating.Lucas

I guess they're using a different spec for the conduit, that photo doesn't look like any Dan House sleeve I've ever seen. Whatever conduit you decide to use, make sure the inside coil is steel and check the product spec for minimum bend radius, it's got to do 5" or less to be usable.

 

[Guardabosques]

Moss, I apologize if I have provided incorrect information. It was not intentional on my part. I purchased the rope sleeve from New Tribe and the picture I posted was what I got. I attached the picture to this post from the New Tribe website and it does in fact look different.

So, I don't know if what I have is Dan House's, but that is what I thought I was buying. Do you think the sleeve from my original post is a product that can be trusted not to cut my rope after some heavy use? What do you consider to be the best type of sleeve?

 

[moss]

Moss, I apologize if I have provided incorrect information. It was not intentional on my part. I purchased the rope sleeve from New Tribe and the picture I posted was what I got. I attached the picture to this post from the New Tribe website and it does in fact look different.

So, I don't know if what I have is Dan House's, but that is what I thought I was buying. Do you think the sleeve from my original post is a product that can be trusted not to cut my rope after some heavy use? What do you consider to be the best type of sleeve?

Oh, nothing to apologize for, I'd just never seen a House sleeve that looked like that. It does look like a sleeve that Elliot Su came up with, I didn't realize they were being sold. It's not going to cut your rope, New Tribe sells good stuff. They wouldn't seek you a sleeve that was going to cause you problems. The good thing about a conduit sleeve is that you can inspect it and tell if the steel coil is coming apart. The malformation would be visble on the outside. I've made some to match the Dan House spec and purposely wrecked a couple to see what it would take to break them. It's not easy, you have to really abuse them: overbend them around a really tight radius branch and then some. Even then they don't want to fall apart. Regular inspection of gear will save you from many a potential problem.

 

[Chuck R]

Leather

Why don't you buy the leather cambium saver at Sherrill for $18 and be done with it? What's the fascination with the conduit?

 

[Guardabosques]

Chuck, have you used a conduit rope saver? They are nice, and user friendly. They seem very sturdy as well. It is not so much a fascination as a preference, you find something that works for you and go for it. I have been exposed to both leather and conduit, but I didn't like the leather.

 

[Guardabosques]

You guys bring up some excellent points, and since I am new to tree climbing and the equipment, I am going by what I have read or been told by "professionals" as well as common sense (which isn't always the best). I am pretty sure the conduit I am using is steel, not aluminum. Pretty strong.

I would think that any normal wear caused by a rope passing repeatedly over the metal would be smooth wear (like water or wind erosion) and would result in a small hole in the conduit wall. If there were jagged edges in the conduit caused maybe from being used on too small a branch (too tight a bend) then it seems like a visual inspection might find the damage.

If anybody reading this has used conduit and has actually experienced damage to conduit, it would be helpful to hear about your experience. The tree climbing course offered by New Tribe advocates the use of conduit savers (Dan House) and should probably be informed of dangerous products before thousands of people are taught to climb trees with faulty equipment.

I'm not rejecting the concerns that are being brought up on this thread, just confused by the variance of opinion on the subject. It seems that nobody here has actually had a first hand experience with damaged rope due to worn conduit savers.

Lucas :deadhorse:

 

[Guardabosques]

How often are you pulling it apart by force during tree climbing?

 

[moss]

The friction of rope on the inside of the conduit is distributed, much like water running through a pipe, there is no focused wear. The area where there is potential for focused wear is on the ferrule on each end of the conduit. This is easily inspected before each use. If the conduit starts to become uncoiled, it is detectable by inspection of the exterior of the conduit.

While the conduit is in use there are no forces generated that would cause the steel to uncoil except the following: If you wrap the conduit around a small branch that is less than the minumum spec'd radius for the conduit then you're asking for trouble. I have done this as a test and have not been able to get the coil to separate. I suspect that it would take repeated abuse to make this happen. As I said earlier, any coil separation is visible on the exterior of the conduit. If you don't know the minimum spec'd bend radius for your conduit, make sure you figure that out before using.

Assuming you're using a VF conduit it will install more easily and stay in place better and have less friction than leather savers. Leather savers can be used on smaller diameter branches than conduit.

 

[Chuck R]

you find something that works for you and go for it

No argument there. I haven't tried the conduit. The added friction up north with the leather is not necessarily a bad thing though. Haven't had any issues with installation. I have also used ring friction savers quite a bit for rec climbing and find that I now gravitate to the leather sleeve. Partly because of the extra friction, large bend radius, and it's just plain simple.

 

[moss]

TreeCo, it's difficult to understand how sound these things are without actually trying one. I recommend that you pick one up and test it out for yourself. It can't be argued theoretically without experience using the device to understand the performance of the conduit. I have used these for many hours under a variety of conditions, I've loaded them every which way. They don't give up.

I recently placed my rope in a tree where the crotch was too wide to install a friction device. I was surprised at the rope wear in one climb. Not to mention how much harder I had to work to climb. My experience is that coarse tree bark will mess up your rope way faster than a pipe will.
-moss