Yesterday I got up in an elm (probably 80' - 90' tall). Power lines about 18' from the trunk and it was leaning toward the lines. The bark was peeling off most of the branches from about 30' up. I tied a high rope for myself and a somewhat suitable crotch that was too low to do much from, looked closely at the bark right in front of me and there were thousands and thousands of holes. I am pretty sure it was the result of woodpeckers, but I am not totally sure. My gaffs were slipping like crazy and the bark would sometimes hold me and sometimes not. And I saw how there were barely any fibers in my directional cuts, the wood felt a bit mushy even. I took out a big lower lead, which probably accounted for 30% of the canopy and then I told the owner I was walking away from it. What do you guys and gals think? I am trying to keep learning even though I have been doing this a while, I just didn't have anywhere high enough to tie into that wasn't already iffy/brittle/on a dead branch and I wasn't able to rely on the spurs to get anywhere. I got a wife and niño, so I walked.
Dead Elm
- Thread starter Mr. K
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The Singing Arborist
ArboristSite Operative
Good on you Mr. K. It takes courage to do what you did. It sounds like that tree shouldn't be climbed but you're the best person to make that call.
When you talked with the owner, did you offer up some options of some other people that might be able to do help them out? Is there some equipment you could rent like a lift or crane to help you get this down?
I don't have a lift myself, so if I encounter a tree I can't climb, I tell the customer I'd have to rent a lift to get it done safely. I also tell them that the cost of the rental would be added to the bid. Sometimes new developments come up that change the way we need to do the job, which can change the price. These are some of the only times I'll ever raise a price from an original bid. I don't want to be on of those "bait and switch" guys.
It's fine to walk away, but I do think it's appropriate to get this customer a few options to get this dangerous tree off their mind. When they hired you, it likely took some stress off them to know a plan was in place. Although I'm sure they understand the situation, they are back to square one now with the added fear of the this tree ringing in the background.
Good luck sir.
When you talked with the owner, did you offer up some options of some other people that might be able to do help them out? Is there some equipment you could rent like a lift or crane to help you get this down?
I don't have a lift myself, so if I encounter a tree I can't climb, I tell the customer I'd have to rent a lift to get it done safely. I also tell them that the cost of the rental would be added to the bid. Sometimes new developments come up that change the way we need to do the job, which can change the price. These are some of the only times I'll ever raise a price from an original bid. I don't want to be on of those "bait and switch" guys.
It's fine to walk away, but I do think it's appropriate to get this customer a few options to get this dangerous tree off their mind. When they hired you, it likely took some stress off them to know a plan was in place. Although I'm sure they understand the situation, they are back to square one now with the added fear of the this tree ringing in the background.
Good luck sir.
Thank you for the reply, yes I told them I'd have to rent a lift. We also decided to call the power company first because it is imminent danger within 8 months from now. The power company around here will most likely just tell them to wait until it falls, and if not, then I'll possibly be back with a lift.
I am curious if you, or any members here, have any species specific advice on winter/late fall bidding deciduous trees. Pines and conifers are easier for me to anticipate what I am getting into, but winter bidding and only seeing bark near the first 8 feet of the trunk has proven to be a challenge because of this job. I made a mistake this time, but what should I look for next time? Maybe just bring a ladder with me when I bid? What do you guys do?
The Singing Arborist
ArboristSite Operative
Good on you for helping 'em.
To be honest, I think our climates are pretty different, which translates to big differences in the way our trees handle decay and damage. Here in Utah, when a tree dies, it dries up, the bark falls off 2-3 years later, and the wood starts cracking. The only soft wood occurs at the base, where the soil keeps it relatively moist. That area is easy to check. We do get decay in the exposed and living areas, but it isn't nearly as bad here as I imagine it is in wetter climates.
For us, if it's dead, you can mostly tell in most species even without leaves. If it's dead all the way, then I start to look at the lift. It doesn't make a ton on sense to climb a tree in the bid, unless you really need to discover it that way. In that situation, you should definitely charge for the bid.
To be honest, I think our climates are pretty different, which translates to big differences in the way our trees handle decay and damage. Here in Utah, when a tree dies, it dries up, the bark falls off 2-3 years later, and the wood starts cracking. The only soft wood occurs at the base, where the soil keeps it relatively moist. That area is easy to check. We do get decay in the exposed and living areas, but it isn't nearly as bad here as I imagine it is in wetter climates.
For us, if it's dead, you can mostly tell in most species even without leaves. If it's dead all the way, then I start to look at the lift. It doesn't make a ton on sense to climb a tree in the bid, unless you really need to discover it that way. In that situation, you should definitely charge for the bid.
BraschBros
ArboristSite Lurker
Good call, only you can decide why your limits are and what you are comfortable with. I’ve been in some sketchy trees, most often you can look at the cuts you are making and see if there is good hardwood in the center to support your weight. But you never know what the integrity of the tree is up at your tie in. I was just in a tree on Saturday that was the same thing, I had a rope over a real solid crotch, but after getting some limbs off I called it because it was too sketchy. Thankfully the customer trusted me to drop the whole tree and I was able to fell it right where I needed it with no damage. When it hit the ground all the branches broke off and I could see the whole tree was foam at the top!
be safe and always trust your instincts. Finishing a job is not worth hurting yourself. Walk away and let a crane deal with it!
be safe and always trust your instincts. Finishing a job is not worth hurting yourself. Walk away and let a crane deal with it!
It just takes looking at a lot of trees to get a better idea of what to expect. There were probably signs from the ground that tree was bad news.
Good on you for bailing. Most important thing is to make it home at the end of the day. Sometimes we let our pride get in the way of making good decisions like that.
Good on you for bailing. Most important thing is to make it home at the end of the day. Sometimes we let our pride get in the way of making good decisions like that.
It’s always good to be vigilant with regards to dead trees/hidden defects, etc. That’s just part of the obvious danger with our work. The real danger is that tree you never saw coming. The one that has your number before you even set foot in it. It’s always there, just waiting for you to let your guard down. Keep your head up for everything, everyday. That’s the best advice I have to all of us.
That and never run a saw in the tree without being tied in twice!!!! Never!
That and never run a saw in the tree without being tied in twice!!!! Never!
mike515
ArboristSite Operative
I'm glad you were smart enough to take a step back. No shame there. I think it's always a smart idea to back off if you're questioning whether or not what you're doing is safe enough. I don't care what experience level you're working at. I can't even begin to guess how many times I've told my guys that they are being paid by the hour to be SAFE. If they have 3 or 4 ways to do something...pick the safest way! If you don't think you can handle it, call me and I will come out there with you to guide you or do it myself.
On a related note....I've been a climber for nearly 30 years. Our company is the oldest in our area. My crew is our best crew. We are the guys who do most of the jobs that the other companies think are a little too much for them. I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that before I tell you that about 2 weeks ago, we were out for a job in the morning before moving on to an afternoon job. The morning job didn't go terribly but everything felt out of sync. Ropes were just a little less controlled than normal. Branches I was tossing were landing in just a little wider area than I wanted. All the small things seemed to be a little off and I don't like that. We finished that job and I shut my crew down for the day and let them finish out on maintenance, etc. I don't do that very often but I did that day. My wife asked me about it later and I told her it just felt like bad mojo to me. I know how I expect a job site to run and something in my gut was just telling me to pull the plug that day. So I did. No shame or regret. The most important thing to do today is go home safely.
On a related note....I've been a climber for nearly 30 years. Our company is the oldest in our area. My crew is our best crew. We are the guys who do most of the jobs that the other companies think are a little too much for them. I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that before I tell you that about 2 weeks ago, we were out for a job in the morning before moving on to an afternoon job. The morning job didn't go terribly but everything felt out of sync. Ropes were just a little less controlled than normal. Branches I was tossing were landing in just a little wider area than I wanted. All the small things seemed to be a little off and I don't like that. We finished that job and I shut my crew down for the day and let them finish out on maintenance, etc. I don't do that very often but I did that day. My wife asked me about it later and I told her it just felt like bad mojo to me. I know how I expect a job site to run and something in my gut was just telling me to pull the plug that day. So I did. No shame or regret. The most important thing to do today is go home safely.
Its ok to say no. If you know the tree is too hazardous to work on, walking away is the right thing to do. In ancient Sparta it was said your either carried your shield home or were carried home on it. Never put yourself in a position where you'll end up being carried home......
bck
ArboristSite Operative
It happens to every one. Don’t be afraid to walk away or re-assess the tree. Be honest to the home owner and tell them what the situation is. Clean up what ever mess you made, don’t charge them for it and figure out a plan b. That’s all you can do.
Dave1960_Gorge
ArboristSite Operative
I assess tree risk as a consultant and climb. You have to trust your instincts: bark peeling off means the tree has been dead 3-5 years; this means the sapwood will be mushy, branches brittle, and thick bark lower down can slip. The size of the holes is important: tiny ones are likely from the bark beetles that killed the tree; larger ones are from larger wood boring beetles that emerge a bit later and are associated with more wood decay. Deep wood pecker holes are made when the birds go after these larvae; they might just flake the bark getting the bark beetles, which are just under the bark.
As you climb, you also want to gauge the “ wiggle”, if a stem is moving more than you think it should be , it may have advanced decay and little solid wood left .
Another option (if you have it) is to climb an adjacent tree, swing over, and do the dead tree removal. Don’t rig off it, just dice it and drop it. The homeowner could have had it removed when it had just died— now they pay the price and you trash their shrubs— not worth risking your life over some rhodies
There was a climber here about eight or ten years ago cut the top of a dead tree and it broke out under him. He came home in a pine box. Just food for thought.
There was a climber here about eight or ten years ago cut the top of a dead tree and it broke out under him. He came home in a pine box. Just food for thought.
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