Double-Cut Felling Techniques?

[SteveSr]

Hello,

Double-cut happens when the tree is larger diameter than the saw bar is long. You basically have to cut from both sides of the tree.

Do any of you have any links to videos or other training materials that show the best practices for dealing with this situation?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[northmanlogging]

and some shameless self promotion


D Douglas Dent has a great book that covers it timberfalling, not sure where to find it these days.

As for double cutting, the biggest thing is establishing your aiming cuts and not chasing them too much, pick a side of the tree to start on, make your first cut, I prefer the level cut, then eyeball 180 deg and try to match it, favoring to be a little shy, you can always take more off, but the idea is to have a nice straight aiming cut without any bulges or curves. Take your time and imagine your cuts as best you can, it takes a lot of practice to pull it off without some clean up.

As for the back cut, pick the side you do not wan't to be under when the tree starts to fall, and cut it first, leaving some hold wood, then using the existing cut to line your bar up go to the other side and continue on.

Granted there are literally hundreds of ways to pull this off, the biggest thing is making sure you don't cut away your hold/hinge wood and have a nice clean face cut. the rest is just removing the chunks as they come out.

 

[SteveSr]

D Douglas Dent has a great book that covers it timberfalling, not sure where to find it these days.

As for double cutting, the biggest thing is establishing your aiming cuts and not chasing them too much, pick a side of the tree to start on, make your first cut, I prefer the level cut, then eyeball 180 deg and try to match it, favoring to be a little shy, you can always take more off, but the idea is to have a nice straight aiming cut without any bulges or curves. Take your time and imagine your cuts as best you can, it takes a lot of practice to pull it off without some clean up.

As for the back cut, pick the side you do not wan't to be under when the tree starts to fall, and cut it first, leaving some hold wood, then using the existing cut to line your bar up go to the other side and continue on.

Granted there are literally hundreds of ways to pull this off, the biggest thing is making sure you don't cut away your hold/hinge wood and have a nice clean face cut. the rest is just removing the chunks as they come out.

I mostly do trail work on the right coast so there is nothing nearly as large as that redwood tree. The main issue is that it can take a several mile hike to the worksite and saw weight is to be minimized. So I always use a MS260 (or equivalent) with a 16" bar. Therefore I end up doing a lot of "double-cutting". The face cut isn't quite so bad as you can see what you are doing to make the cuts line up. The big issue is the bore cut to set the hinge and then the back cut.

One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.

You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically. Horizontally you can sort of eyeball the bar and line it up with the face cut. This would likely leave a horizontal "slice" that would just split out when the tree fell.

 

[rwoods]

Many of us don't bore cut except in certain situations. Might be easier for you to do likewise. Here is a link to Dent's book. https://www.baileysonline.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=dent+book

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

I mostly do trail work on the right coast so there is nothing nearly as large as that redwood tree. The main issue is that it can take a several mile hike to the worksite and saw weight is to be minimized. So I always use a MS260 (or equivalent) with a 16" bar. Therefore I end up doing a lot of "double-cutting". The face cut isn't quite so bad as you can see what you are doing to make the cuts line up. The big issue is the bore cut to set the hinge and then the back cut.

One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.

You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically. Horizontally you can sort of eyeball the bar and line it up with the face cut. This would likely leave a horizontal "slice" that would just split out when the tree fell.

its surprising how little will hold a tree at times, so I will tend to take quite a bit off the ugly side, or use the bar tip and walk it around, so you're really only cutting from one side. Using the tip takes some practice as well, but its effective. East coast folks like to make fun of us long bar west coast guys, but even with 32" bars or better, they often arn't enough to get all the way through, so we have to tickle the off side with the tip, especially on steep ground where you just can't reach the off side without scaffolding or spring boards... and spring boards are cool and all, but if you don't need them its a better day all around.

Bore cutting isn't something I use often as its really only needed on hard leaners, or extra sketchy rotten stuff.

However, since you are already bore cutting, you can establish the hold wood from the ugly side, then cut back to where your strap is going to be, and just poke the bar out the other side from the narrow point at the strap, then waltz to the other side and use that peep hole to start the second cut, finish setting your hold wood on the pretty side, then dust the strap and skedaddle on out of there

 

[Spotted Owl]

Look up Patrick Lacey on that YouTube or some of the Canadians. Everything cut is bigger than the bar. It’s softwood so you’ll have to interpret that into your situations. You don’t always have to dance around a stick. The less back and forth the more you pay attention. You’ll be less tired and less mistake prone also. But sometimes you don’t have a choice. Northman is right, it’s impressive how little wood will hold a massive amount in place. There’s regulation for everything, then there’s real world experience that dictates what needs to happen, your experience will tell you what to do. Except for really spooky alder it’s rare that anything is bore cut here. If your 16 doesn’t poke through and give you a place to start the back side change to a 20, it’s only a couple more ounce to carry around. If your bar is that much to short search up the coos bay cut, it will eliminate 90% of need to bore. Score a line from corner to corner of your face, I do this all the time on bigger stuff, then you can connect the dots without as much guessing and make sure your cuts line up.



Owl

 

[slowp]

Get a cheery helper to help carry gear. He was a good boy.

 

[Cfaller]

This is good book on timber falling also. Dent's book was written in the early 70's.
https://theartoffellingtimber.com/get-the-book/

 

[SteveSr]

[

Get a cheery helper to help carry gear. He was a good boy.
View attachment 863703

Yea, I know people who let their dogs carry some of their gear!

 

[SteveSr]

Dent's book was written in the early 70's.

A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.

This is good book on timber falling also.
https://theartoffellingtimber.com/get-the-book/

I'll take a look at this book.

As volunteers working in NF & other federal land we have to do things their way. They are now mandating (via JHA) an open face face cut... (Must control the fall all the way to the ground). They are also highly recommending (I don't think that it is mandated... yet) bore cutting the hinge as it gives the sawyer time and a way to precisely set everything up correctly before cutting the trigger wood.

Both of these techniques increase the safety for the sawyer which is the reason for doing it. One of my instructors once said that "We are going to ruin you guys for logging" due to the emphasis on safety and not on cutting for production.

 

[2dogs]

Judging Dent's book before you have ever seen the cover? How tolerant you are.
Your woke instructor has ruined you for learning different techniques for different situations. Please stay east of the Rockies so you won't have to speak with people who cut trees every day and have been doing so for many years and, surprise, live to go home to their families.

 

[slowp]

A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.



I'll take a look at this book.

As volunteers working in NF & other federal land we have to do things their way. They are now mandating (via JHA) an open face face cut... (Must control the fall all the way to the ground). They are also highly recommending (I don't think that it is mandated... yet) bore cutting the hinge as it gives the sawyer time and a way to precisely set everything up correctly before cutting the trigger wood.

Both of these techniques increase the safety for the sawyer which is the reason for doing it. One of my instructors once said that "We are going to ruin you guys for logging" due to the emphasis on safety and not on cutting for production.

The Forest Service in Region 6 does not allow trail crew volunteers to fall trees. They can buck out trails after training and certification either with a chainsaw or misery whip. I am amazed that they allow you to fall trees for trail maintenance as a volunteer. Only the certified and paid trail crew -- FS people, are allowed to do that here, and there isn't much falling to do along trails for them. Contractors, also.

Why are you falling trees along trails?

 

[slowp]

I like my ironing board cover!

 

[slowp]

This is handed out at trail work saw training out here. We have mostly wilderness work.

Saws That Sing

 

[northmanlogging]

A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.



I'll take a look at this book.

As volunteers working in NF & other federal land we have to do things their way. They are now mandating (via JHA) an open face face cut... (Must control the fall all the way to the ground). They are also highly recommending (I don't think that it is mandated... yet) bore cutting the hinge as it gives the sawyer time and a way to precisely set everything up correctly before cutting the trigger wood.

Both of these techniques increase the safety for the sawyer which is the reason for doing it. One of my instructors once said that "We are going to ruin you guys for logging" due to the emphasis on safety and not on cutting for production.

A lot of things have changed, but Dent's book is still a good place to start, simply because it shows you and tells you to look at your efforts and criticize them. You can learn more from one mistake then you can by doing it "proper" every time.

Sounds like some of these folks that are "mandating" stuff don't really understand tree falling, its not always about a perfect cylinder in an open field, many times you don't want the stem attached to the stump all the way to the ground, **** most of the time you really really don't want that especially in a thinning or selective cut situation. You wan't the butt on the ground in front of the stump ASAP.

Nor do I feel that bore cutting every tree all the time is ever warranted. Most times its just more work and slows you down, both making things ultimately more dangerous by the end of a long day.


I suppose setting everything perfectly has its benefits, assuming the cutter knows what perfect is to begin with, but in reality dynamic motion can be perfect too, and you can't achieve that while running away...

Anyway, I get that the mucky mucks are doing their best to not have a major liability on their desks but come on, its tree falling, its going to be dangerous, use a little common sense and a little bit of experience and see what happens, one cut to rule them all is a fallacy at best

 

[Spotted Owl]

A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.

A lot hasn’t changed in 50+ years also.... Like volunteers who ask when they already know or decide who knows and who doesn’t before even hearing what might be said/read.

Good luck.



Owl

 

[Jethro 2t sniffer]

Quite amazing what a 24 inch bar will cut.
I'm only a short dude

Don't hassle me too much id only cut a couple trees before that 1.

Like northman said learn from mistakes.

First leaner sooo first bore cut too. Still bar far too short but all I had.


Then got a 32 inch bar so headed to the other end of the shelter belt with the learned lessons


Still not really halfway with the 32. The mac isn't parked right to show it but yeah 6 foot tree. Probably cut less than a dozen trees by then. Probably not ideal to learn on lol but ahhhh sink or swim I say. My mates 45cc stihl certainly wasn't cutting that down.

Here's the row of trees.

Haven't got to cut many trees where the bar does reach across all the way. This was like 40 inch I guess


At the end of the day a hinge is a hinge and use common sense like northman said again leave the last bit to cut where you want to be standing. If its a leaner bore it.

To the op Steve surely you must pretty darn competent and dropping trees being a member for this long?

I guess I'm waffling for other newbs like myself finding this thread.

Just look after that hinge at all costs if its a leaner bore it. However ever you decide with whatever length bar just look after that hinge and keep your eyes peeled. So far I have avoided death by following that and be wary of youtube "experts" even many with a heap of subscribers and views are idiots no matter how flash their saw is and how many times they click the brake on and off

 

[slowp]

I deleted my previous post. I am still curious as to what and why the FS is having trail work volunteers fall trees there when it just isn't done in the PNW region. Also, Stevesr, what certification level do you hold? A, B, C?????
If things have not changed since I retired, an A level is beginning--one is not supposed to cut anything over 12 inches in diameter. A B level is one who is more competent but there is a 24 inch limit. A C faller is very competent and unlimited in the size of tree. What does your card say?

As for carrying a saw in, I padded the bar, as you can see in the dog picture, and carried with that on my shoulder and pack on my back. The saw head can rest on top of the pack, if it is a day pack. You shouldn't be working alone so spread out the load amongst your coworkers. The trail guys where I worked usually rode trail bikes, because if one can use a chainsaw, one is not in wilderness. There are also specific packs made for carrying saws.

I did not want to fall trees, I just wanted to be able to use a saw to get into timber sales instead of whacking away with a pulaski or waiting for somebody else to cut the road open. I was merely a B Bucker which, as I explained to a production faller who was worked up about being told he could NOT volunteer to cut hazard trees along a road was demanding that I tell him how to fall a tree since I was the certified one. I told him I was merely a bucker and would have to lie down and look at the tree from that perspective (like it was on the ground) . We had a good laugh.

Ah, waking up to the sound of a dog barfing is a great way to start the day.

 

[northmanlogging]

"clicking the brake on and off"


Probably the most annoying thing in a "youtube expert" vidjeo. I can' probably count on one hand the times I've purposefully set the brake in the last 3 years, and usually its because the idle was running a little too high.

If I climbed more (which I haven't done a whole lot of lately) I could say I did it more, because climbing saws have a mind of their own at times... and whipping a running saw around on a leash without the brake set just seams like less then a good idea lol.

I'm sure that the internet nannies will have me flogged for it, and I really couldn't care, but the brake shouldn't be relied on, its there largely incase of kickbacks, or if you intend to hand the saw off, or do some really stupid acrobatics such as climbing spring boards while one handing an 084... The rest is all about tip control, keep the bar where you wan't it at all times and don't be a moron... kinda like muzzle control, don't point it at anything you don't want dead.

 

[slowp]

If you were to be certified by the FS, you would be clicking that brake on and off. It's part of the deal. I'm used to doing it and have been glad I did a few times as I am a klutz. I also start a saw using the foot holding it (toes through the handle) method and that is a habit. It scratches the heck out of the saw if you wear calks, but? The only motor I can drop start (which is frowned upon by the FS) is my weed whacker.

The OP does tell it like it is on the safety aspect. During saw training, they will say over and over that the main object of the training is to teach and stress safety.

It's a different world from what most here are used to, but the FS deals with a lot of people learning how to run saws and such draconian measures like flipping the chain brake on might keep some from winning Darwin awards.