Double-Cut Felling Techniques?

[Bwildered]

There's some funny ideas out there, the chain brake is just like the parking brake on a truck, I'm sure there's still a few out there that use a rock under the wheel to stop the truck rolling away, because it's the macho way of doing it. Come to think of it I have never heard of somebody's day or the rest of their life being ruined by using any sort of brake for its intended purpose.

 

[Westboastfaller]

One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.

IDK, there is a lot of certifications around the world these days and they aren't exactly in agreement with each other.
Even the basic 2 day first aid course in BC, simplfys the protocols compared to the intense occupational first aid courses that required 80 hours in class and 80 at home.
What you say may be a guideline somewhere but is not going to work in all situation under the said 50% as you can't go back down there after the top is cut, You want to make sure...and cut more.
It also wouldn't pose danger in many situations. What they are saying there (worst case scenario) is they don't want you over cutting on the low side of an unstable tree in case the tension wood was to tear off the high side when your down there. Secondly (and more probable) is having the bottom tension wood wanting to pinch the bar. Sometimes we start with a vertical cut with unstable trees and only cut the low side half of the undercut to better your chances of a pinch in order to cut the compression wood behind the hold wood.
I will jump on the same message as Matt (@ Northmanlogging) ,there is simply no one falling cut sequence for every tree.This is why at least BC Fallers Saftey Counsel was smart when they included the clause.."unless you are overcoming a Falling difficulty"

To be continued...

You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically.

its not done that way.

To be continued...

 

[northmanlogging]

There's some funny ideas out there, the chain brake is just like the parking brake on a truck, I'm sure there's still a few out there that use a rock under the wheel to stop the truck rolling away, because it's the macho way of doing it. Come to think of it I have never heard of somebody's day or the rest of their life being ruined by using any sort of brake for its intended purpose.

I get it, safety first etc.

but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.

its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.

 

[SteveSr]

However, since you are already bore cutting, you can establish the hold wood from the ugly side, then cut back to where your strap is going to be, and just poke the bar out the other side from the narrow point at the strap, then waltz to the other side and use that peep hole to start the second cut, finish setting your hold wood on the pretty side, then dust the strap and skedaddle on out of there

Hadn't thought of that but it would provide a way to make the cuts line up while still leaving the trigger/holding wood.

 

[catbuster]

First off... Screw the bird’s mouth. Both Douglas Dent and Roy Hauser’s books are very good, the principles of falling a tree are the same regardless of what tool you use. I’d like to take one of Roy’s classes some day.

Double cutting is exactly that. Gun one side of the face in, make your scarf cut. Then you have the choice of boring in & taking that chunk out then working around the other side, or you can get ballsy and come in from the other side and gun the cut in the same direction, make your scarf cut and hope they work. The latter is far from a guaranteed thing. The former is a much safer way and it’s easier to make your cuts line up. Don’t overthink it.

If your bore cuts don’t line up, learn how to hold the saw level. It’s not that hard... Scribe a line around if you have to.

I too, am interested in your falling qualifications to work FS ground, volunteer or not. The last S-212 class, albeit an NWCG class, taught a farmer face as the primary face used. It also introduced me to the new levels (1, 2 & 3) that have replaced A, B & C.

 

[SteveSr]

The Forest Service in Region 6 does not allow trail crew volunteers to fall trees. They can buck out trails after training and certification either with a chainsaw or misery whip. I am amazed that they allow you to fall trees for trail maintenance as a volunteer. Only the certified and paid trail crew -- FS

USFS has different rules for different areas. In our area volunteers can be certified up to "B" falling. However this is getting more and more rare as most volunteers do not put in enough saw time to either get or stay proficient.

Why are you falling trees along trails?

Mostly to get rid of dead trees before they become hazards to hikers and some hazardous trees if the sawyer has the skill and can do it safely. We will also take down any tree that might represent a hazard to a piece of trail infrastructure, mostly bridges. Again, only if the sawyer has the skills to do it safely.

 

[SteveSr]

Quite amazing what a 24 inch bar will cut.
I'm only a short dude

Or a 16" bar even. You have some massive trees. Everything that I deal with is 99% second and third growth.

At only 150 pounds I am not a big guy either.

To the op Steve surely you must pretty darn competent and dropping trees being a member for this long?

I would consider myself experienced and competent but no expert. I don't have any problem walking away from a situation that I am not 100% sure that I can safely handle. Anyone who thinks that they are an expert may need to think again. All of us just have experience some of which is different than others.

Just look after that hinge at all costs if its a leaner bore it. However ever you decide with whatever length bar just look after that hinge and keep your eyes peeled.

Bore cutting is a good way to mitigate a barber chair in a heavy leaner. Fibers that are already cut can't start a longitudinal split.

So far I have avoided death by following that and be wary of youtube "experts" even many with a heap of subscribers and views are idiots no matter how flash their saw is and how many times they click the brake on and off

Unfortunately, YouTube has a very low barrier to entry and a lot of folks "think" that they are "experts". When anyone asks me how NOT to use a chainsaw my short answer is to go to YouTube and type in "Chainsaw".

 

[SteveSr]

I deleted my previous post. I am still curious as to what and why the FS is having trail work volunteers fall trees there when it just isn't done in the PNW region. Also, Stevesr, what certification level do you hold? A, B, C?????

I suspect that volunteer falling isn't allowed in the PNW because the trees are generally *much* bigger and more of them may be compromised (rot) due to the constant high humidity.

I currently hold a "C" bucking and "B" felling certifications.

If things have not changed since I retired, an A level is beginning--one is not supposed to cut anything over 12 inches in diameter. A B level is one who is more competent but there is a 24 inch limit. A C faller is very competent and unlimited in the size of tree.

Things have changed rather significantly since you have retired. USFS has now introduced the OHLEC complexity guidelines. They don't rate by tree size anymore. The rationale is that a compromised 10" tree could actually be more hazardous than a healthy 24" tree.

As for carrying a saw in, I padded the bar, as you can see in the dog picture, and carried with that on my shoulder and pack on my back. The saw head can rest on top of the pack, if it is a day pack. You shouldn't be working alone so spread out the load amongst your coworkers. The trail guys where I worked usually rode trail bikes, because if one can use a chainsaw, one is not in wilderness. There are also specific packs made for carrying saws.

I actually made a saw carrier out of an old Kelty external frame pack. Works nice for carrying everything that you will need for a productive day of trail work.

 

[northmanlogging]

I suspect that volunteer falling isn't allowed in the PNW because the trees are generally *much* bigger and more of them may be compromised (rot) due to the constant high humidity.

This is where assuming can get you into trouble lol, the Humidity isn't so bad here, it just rains a lot, and its relatively cool.

In other words rot isn't generally an issue.

Oddly enough, and i think most west coast cutters will agree a large tree is safer to fall than a little tree, up to a point anyway, these big trees are easier to get a wedge started as a little one will sit back before the bar gets out of the way, and a large tree starts to move real slow, so you have plenty of time to vacate the premises, or correct a cut, them small trees start to tip and are gone in a hurry.

 

[SteveSr]

If your bore cuts don’t line up, learn how to hold the saw level. It’s not that hard... Scribe a line around if you have to.

I am usually pretty close but not always on. Another poster had a nice tip for doing this. I have seen a video of the fire guys using sawdust or fire ashes on the side of the bar as a pseudo level. If the ashes don't vibrate off when the chain is spun the bar is level.

I too, am interested in your falling qualifications to work FS ground, volunteer or not. The last S-212 class, albeit an NWCG class, taught a farmer face as the primary face used. It also introduced me to the new levels (1, 2 & 3) that have replaced A, B & C.

USFS is still currently using the A, B, and C classifications and the now somewhat dated MTDC curriculum for volunteer training that won't be dealing with fires. From the best that I can determine the MTDC curriculum is pretty much the same as S-212 with all of the fire stuff removed.

 

[SteveSr]

but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.

Well, believe it or not, the USFS has a rule for this too. It is called the two-step rule and it has noting to do with dancing... unless you're dancing with a chainsaw! Basically if you have to take more than two steps to your next cut the chain brake should be on.

 

[Bwildered]

I get it, safety first etc.

but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.

its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.

I've taken a step or few & gone completely arse over tit a few times & luckily still have all my bits, familiarity breeds complacency, I have to remind myself often to put the brake on because I'm especially guilty.

 

[Jethro 2t sniffer]

Or a 16" bar even. You have some massive trees. Everything that I deal with is 99% second and third growth.

At only 150 pounds I am not a big guy either.


I would consider myself experienced and competent but no expert. I don't have any problem walking away from a situation that I am not 100% sure that I can safely handle. Anyone who thinks that they are an expert may need to think again. All of us just have experience some of which is different than others.


Bore cutting is a good way to mitigate a barber chair in a heavy leaner. Fibers that are already cut can't start a longitudinal split.


Unfortunately, YouTube has a very low barrier to entry and a lot of folks "think" that they are "experts". When anyone asks me how NOT to use a chainsaw my short answer is to go to YouTube and type in "Chainsaw".

They are big trees they are everywhere here planted 100 odd years ago. Big eucalyptus big radiata pine those big hairy things are monterrey cypress. They love it here lots of work but wood is wood and free is great

Yup you tube is scary its a good thing to watch the tree fails videos for a reality check on how South things will go if not on the ball

I feel very safe using an old mac with no brake at all the slower rpm and the no AV gives a very accurate feel of the tip. They just don't kick as hard. They still will but the bar generally only goes where you put it not where the springs or rubber are sending it.

 

[slowp]

I get it, safety first etc.

but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.

its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.

I guess I've been certified by reasonable guys who saw the big picture. I never ran into anybody that hard core. One retired lawyer? who showed up to work on a trail, KICKED MY SAW to see if the chain brake was real. I hope he hurt his foot because he kicked Old Sparkless and that old saw has a lot of metal in it!
(Not sure if he was a retired lawyer but he sure was twitchy--one of those guys who works fast but not necessarily safe because he's pushing too hard.)

Ever hear of fake chain brakes? I sure haven't.

Still waiting on the OP to answer previous questions. (cue up the Jeopardy tune)

 

[slowp]

The PNW also has protocol for hazard trees. Whether a hazard tree is felled depends on the amount of traffic/time that people would be spending near enough to get clobbered. I'm thinking there is a bit of falling done in some of the burn areas, but you go into the woods on a trail, you take your chances. The FS has a hard time taking care of hazard trees along school bus routes and most trails are not a priority.

 

[northmanlogging]

I guess I've been certified by reasonable guys who saw the big picture. I never ran into anybody that hard core. One retired lawyer? who showed up to work on a trail, KICKED MY SAW to see if the chain brake was real. I hope he hurt his foot because he kicked Old Sparkless and that old saw has a lot of metal in it!
(Not sure if he was a retired lawyer but he sure was twitchy--one of those guys who works fast but not necessarily safe because he's pushing too hard.)

Ever hear of fake chain brakes? I sure haven't.

Still waiting on the OP to answer previous questions. (cue up the Jeopardy tune)

There was a brief time when saws came with a bumper to protect your knuckles (cause I guess folks were getting into fist fights with the trees?)

however, dude kicking someone else's saw is a good reason to get in a fist fight, so maybe the knuckle guards really did serve a purpose?

Lots of them dudes that work hard, and play it off as being better then everyone, but really not accomplishing much for 10x the effort

 

[rwoods]

I had to go back to the first post as I was getting confused as to why a B faller would need basic advice. If you want training materials, here is a good start IMO: https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ard-video-series/introduction-1-of-17?lang=en

Ron

 

[SteveSr]

I had to go back to the first post as I was getting confused as to why a B faller would need basic advice. If you want training materials, here is a good start IMO: https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ard-video-series/introduction-1-of-17?lang=en

Ron

I was just wondering where the USFS was getting/setting their guidelines for *current* best practices. As folks have noted there are lots of different sources for information. While most pretty much agree there are differences.

 

[slowp]

I was just wondering where the USFS was getting/setting their guidelines for *current* best practices. As folks have noted there are lots of different sources for information. While most pretty much agree there are differences.

Here's my experience with it. In the 1980s, guys were showing up on fires with brand new saws and claiming to be fallers. Forest Service people--falling bosses go out with contract fallers on fires and help out and watch things. These falling bosses were having to return to camp after just a few trees were cut, or attempted to be cut, with the "faller" in tow because the fallers were incompetent. We were also having fatalities and injuries during those years. We had a fatality on our district--a motorist driving by was killed when a hazard tree being felled, went over backwards, and hit him as he drove by. The guys out doing the falling were well versed in falling, but not safety. No flaggers were present, no warning signs, and it was a fairly well used road. That's why the certification started--too many injuries and deaths.

Douglas Dent videos were watched, then one went out with the district expert and started cutting trees. Dent actually went out with some of the local Randle area production fallers to film. I remember them coming into the office afterwards and talking about having a couple of the trees go over backwards that day and having blown the filming of the falling method they wanted to demonstrate.

Various experts in and out of the agency got together and came up with the certification.

When I got my "permanent" job, I got a call asking if I would want to start work on a precommercial thinning crew. I said yes. I showed up, was given a beater saw, file, chaps and earplugs and told "Don't get hurt." No training. Trial and error was the way I learned and some of the trees were big enough to maim or kill--culls had to come down. I did go get a coworker to cut some of those as I did not know how to do it. I still don't. Found out thirty some years later that the guys on the crew had a pool going on how long I'd last. I made it through the season and was able to cut as much as they did after I figured it out. And, I had to use the chain brake because the old Mac saw I had wouldn't run unless I kept the idle speed turned up.

The bucking exam I had later in life was going out with our C faller, and bucking and limbing what he told me to do. The same was done with the volunteer organization, except with the latter, I sat through a class before going out.

 

[slowp]

There was a brief time when saws came with a bumper to protect your knuckles (cause I guess folks were getting into fist fights with the trees?)

however, dude kicking someone else's saw is a good reason to get in a fist fight, so maybe the knuckle guards really did serve a purpose?

Lots of them dudes that work hard, and play it off as being better then everyone, but really not accomplishing much for 10x the effort

Karma scared him that day. He misjudged the tension in a blowdown and got knocked over when it released. Nothing serious, but a good scare for him.