EXTREME precision falling

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Wesspur
Rugged made
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Hey Murphy, I just checked out that last video. I see how the physics work out for the application. Just recently I used similar method with about a 20" maple that i topped out and only had about 30' to base. I am not claiming to be an expert! I just gotta say that Making those cuts above your head and reaching out with what an ms 440, 460? Seems like playing with fire, IMO I don't have near the experience as you are most of the guys on here. No disrespect, Just gotta say that looks as if it will end badly one day! Hope I am wrong and I am sure someone will tell if I am! Lol, Be safe :)
 
murphy4trees said:
Last time I really got nervous about that cut was 1989, when we started using the cut on storm damaged trees for Hugo.... only time I get nervous these days is when the tree is getting straight, and might go 360 after the final cut.. otherwise the butt ALWAYS does the same thing... goes straight down*..... might look risky, but its NOT... you practically have to try to get under it for it to get you.. * the only exception is if the tree is top heavy, which is extremely rare.. if its top heavy the but is gonna come back and down.. This is extremely rare situation, with a huge tree laying well over the peak of a roof, or sometimes a tree getting hung in a low crotch of a nearby tree..

When everyone freaked out about that first vid, thinking it was so dangerous I made this one to show how predictable it is:
plunged vertical snap cuts.mov - YouTube

ps.. if you think that's a good cut, I got another that will really drop your jaw... been holding back on that one for years... really should get it out though, 'casue its a potential life saver..
Click to expand...

hey Murph ... nice cut .. thanks for sharing.

here's how I've been doing it... not as elegant but NO way it's going to barberchair and come back at you. 4in wide x 30ft truckers strap used. NO way that wood is splitting.

DSC00362.jpg


DSC00367.jpg


DSC00374.jpg


DSC00376.jpg
 
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ClimbMIT said:
Hey Murphy, I just checked out that last video. I see how the physics work out for the application. Just recently I used similar method with about a 20" maple that i topped out and only had about 30' to base. I am not claiming to be an expert! I just gotta say that Making those cuts above your head and reaching out with what an ms 440, 460? Seems like playing with fire, IMO I don't have near the experience as you are most of the guys on here. No disrespect, Just gotta say that looks as if it will end badly one day! Hope I am wrong and I am sure someone will tell if I am! Lol, Be safe :)
Click to expand...

That's a valid criticism, if for nothing else, just becasue its a violation of safety guidelines and is a bad example to put on video... that said, I had perfect control of the saw at all times.. and there is no way to lose control from that position that would put the cutter at risk.. Its one of those situations where the experience and knowledge of the faller trumps safety guidelines.. becasue a higher cut is going to get more drop out of the tree, which can often put it on the ground before it gets straight.. once it gets straight, it becomes a very dangerous tree...
 
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RVALUE said:
I'm trying to get my mind around the function and significance of the plunge cut


.....pondering......
Click to expand...

the plunge cut you're talking about RV is used in the step cut... which is really just a slight variation of Sorrensen's Game of Logging plunge cut and back release.. (a much different cut than the plunge cut used to trip hung trees)... One of the original benefits of that cut for loggers was in the added 3-5 seconds of escape time, which is HUGE in the woods (studies showed a marked reduction in serious injuries and fatalities amongst loggers in the east after the PC& BR was adopted), but of little or no significance to the suburban arborist.. the advantage of that plunge and back release to the arborist is that it allows the faller to set the hinge exactly as he wants it before any chance of the tree starting to move. Also the plunge cut allows the faller to very easily judge and set the height of the back cut (relative to the notch)... Those specific advantages can be huge in suburban situations, but they require a new mindset... Most suburban arbs, set a pull line and have the guys pull while the cut is being made and they just keep cutting 'til the tree starts to move. They don;t really think too much about how much hinge to leave... they just get what they get, from the way it turns out...

Setting the hinge with the plunge cut requires the faller to KNOW how much hinge he wants and then carefully set that up, without over cutting... If you over cut, there is a good chance you;re gonna lose the tree. Just like any new skill, this takes thought and practice to develop, and there are a few simple tricks that help getting it dialed in.. You have to practice in non critical situations. And MORE IMPORTANTLY you have to KNOW THE WHY.. WHY is the notch made to a certain depth and width. WHY do you make the back cut higher or not.. WHY do you make the hinge regular, fat or skinny, tapered, gutted etc or not.. VERY FEW (99%+) suburban arbs around here have any idea what the answer to any of those questions is. They have a one size fits all, just do it the way its always been done mentality. That is the elephant in the living room in this industry.. nobody can admit just how clueless about this very basic knowledge, most arbs are... of course, I don't have that problem... I AM the one saying the emperor has no clothes.. And I often come off as arrogant, but its just calling it like I see it...

After that it's simply getting down the mechanics of making that bar go where you want while plunging... that can be developed by practicing bucking cuts on downed logs.. after that you just have to figure out how to turn the saw on its side with the same control.... Once you understand the why and get the mechanics dialed in, you'll find countless ways to use the plunge cut to your advantage.. I make new **** up all the time, sometimes just to see if it'll work... Lots of fun!
 
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OK I just shot a nice demo vid of that cut in use... I really want to work with my old editor/graphics guy to show it properly. He graduated from college, so he may not want to work with me much anymore.. he got a real job that keeps him busy, but who knows, maybe it'll work out. When it does get shown, you guys are gonna freak out!
 
Gologit said:
Here's some real falling for you guys to enjoy.

What say, Murph...you up for something like this?


http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/211375.htm#post3890823
Click to expand...

That dude Cody is way out of my league... I do what I do well, but its extremely limited compared to the west coast faller types.. they drop trees from dawn to dusk.. face a lot of trickier situations and don't use a pull line... He could cut circles around me... I do wonder if awesome west coast types like Cody have the confidence to drop nasty trees in tight situations when there is big property on the line.. I bet most do..
 
i read a good quote by randymac a couple days ago what them straps are good for ............
 
We used the cut I use today. My photographer looked bored and I doubt the video turned out.

You can't get good help these days.

I had a man tell me once, " You have all the sorry help in town, and we can't get any...."

We took a bad dead stem down that started life at 70 foot, (had been topped) 4 foot about 18 inches off the ground. Too cheap too. :)
 
I just looked at some of the video, didn't show much. I'll try later.......

:)


BTW, What did I mean?
 
murphy4trees said:
I've been wanting to get a 30,000 lb dyno for some time, to measure rigging and pulling forces.. If you know how to use a plunge cut to set up the hinge, then it doesn't matter what pulling power is used.. it takes what it takes to move the tree... "it is what it is" as they say... I won't even engage in a debate with anyone that criticizes the use of pulling with equipment in ALL scenarios..
Click to expand...

Didn't critisize in the least nor looking to debate, just wanted to get some useful information
 
Only time I was ever totally scared was once using 5 to 1 and 3 men could not move a back leaner. House on leaning side of tree! This was when I was still a greenhorn 1983, anyway had the tree cut to 1/2 inch hinge and could not budge so snubbed it off and Tied another rope on and used truck. The scary part was in this process of getting second rope etc the wind started really blowing. After that day I always used truck until getting my winch and if I shorten life of rope so what ,I buy new ropes and use old ones for dragging **** or what have you! Nothing worse imo than inadequate pull.
 
ropensaddle said:
Only time I was ever totally scared was once using 5 to 1 and 3 men could not move a back leaner. House on leaning side of tree! This was when I was still a greenhorn 1983, anyway had the tree cut to 1/2 inch hinge and could not budge so snubbed it off and Tied another rope on and used truck. The scary part was in this process of getting second rope etc the wind started really blowing. After that day I always used truck until getting my winch and if I shorten life of rope so what ,I buy new ropes and use old ones for dragging **** or what have you! Nothing worse imo than inadequate pull.
Click to expand...

I had a similar thing happen some 15-20 years ago.. I had preset two lines and was planning on using manpower @ 3:1 MA on each line... BIG MONSTER OAK...... Just two of us and that tree was going NOWHERE!!!.... Fortunately there was a construction crew working across the street and with 4 more men, we could ratchet it back, going back and forth from one line to the other and finally got it over.. God provides!.. it would have been a bad situation without the extra help... pretty good deal for beer money!

Ever since then I, I ALWAYS SET TWO LINES in a heavy backleaner, unless its so big, it need three!... Yesterday we were up on Valley Forge mountain, monster chestnut oak in a hard to reach location... Was able to get the bucket truck off the neighbor's drive and with the 75' altec maxed out, was still looking up at 40'+ of top... multiple leads.. NO WAY to lower... Pull line up the hill to customers drive, skid loader had no problem pulling the first few leads... NOTE:... I set the pull line with a 12' pole saw and then would drop down some for the cut so the line had decent leverage...

anywho.. the last lead was leaning back 15-20 degrees with a lot of big limbs coming straight back.. NFW was I gonna put just the little skid loader on that... skid loader just anchored the first line, with a nice bit of pre-tension which move the top a good bit... real pull was done with the dodge 250 cummins diesel in low range... OH YA! plenty of power... EVEN then I wouldn't have tried it, unless the piece had some side lean away from the bucket.. just not worth taking a even a 1% chance when your life is 75 up.. and you CANNOT TRUST the hinge on chestnut oak..

Piece came down perfectly.... I love it when I can hear my heart beat out loud after those kinda trees hit the ground!

Moral of the story... have make SURE you have plenty of power available for pulling back-leaners...
 
My father does demolition and drainage work and he had me clearing out a retention basin to replace and the inlet , and on the top of the slope was a monstrous ash , behind that was a 12 ft fence which backed up to the cherry hill mall , I set a 3/4 rope with the bucket to rip it over into the center of the basin , well when I started the backcut it leaned back on the saw well my father had the excavator about 120 ft away and was pulling so hard there was water squeezing outta the rope , I started cutting again and before I could get the backcut done the entire root plate gave way like a 20 ft root plate and it all went down into the basin , I have never seen a rope have the moisture squeezed out like a dishrag quite a scary experience for sure . But I knew the machine wasn't gonna give up they can curl almost 30 tons , the rope on the other hand may have blown out and now I always likewise run 2 at all times , or 2 part it .
 

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