Falling question

[Woody912]

I have noticed that when people bore cut a tree they always use the 45 degree down dogtooth cut to release the tree. Saw a guy get his arm broke on Youtube because it pinched and twisted his saw as it lifted and fell. I have done a few lately where I made the bypass cut parallel to and below bore cut, seems to me there is no chance of pinching your saw if you do it that way. Is there a good reason why I should not be doing this? Not a logger, just cutting a few ash trees to get a few bucks out of them. Serious Dutchman, bad side lean and not paying enough attention to how deep I was.

 

[northmanlogging]

I have noticed that when people bore cut a tree they always use the 45 degree down dogtooth cut to release the tree. Saw a guy get his arm broke on Youtube because it pinched and twisted his saw as it lifted and fell. I have done a few lately where I made the bypass cut parallel to and below bore cut, seems to me there is no chance of pinching your saw if you do it that way. Is there a good reason why I should not be doing this? Not a logger, just cutting a few ash trees to get a few bucks out of them. Serious Dutchman, bad side lean and not paying enough attention to how deep I was.

lots of folks didn't pay attention in physics class?

Or they saw some other moron do it and are just mimicking something they don't fully understand.

I think the thinking is that that tooth of stump sticking up is supposed to prevent a chair (it won't) much like the farmer/sloping back cut, that also doesn't work.

The right way, is to do as you did in the picture and make the release cut parallel but just below the main back cut, so if **** does go sideway the saw has a better chance of not being launched with the rest of the tree, it could still happen but its greatly minimized.

The other thing to do is just ****ing abandon the saw to its fate, its replaceable and tougher then it looks. For instance just today I had one go sideways, hit the excavator, nearly killed me, I left the brand new saw in the cut and ran like a scared pupper dog at the vets office... saw was fine, but if I'd of tried to save it, I wouldn't be typing this right now....

 

[Woody912]

lots of folks didn't pay attention in physics class?

Or they saw some other moron do it and are just mimicking something they don't fully understand.

I think the thinking is that that tooth of stump sticking up is supposed to prevent a chair (it won't) much like the farmer/sloping back cut, that also doesn't work.

The right way, is to do as you did in the picture and make the release cut parallel but just below the main back cut, so if **** does go sideway the saw has a better chance of not being launched with the rest of the tree, it could still happen but its greatly minimized.

The other thing to do is just ****ing abandon the saw to its fate, its replaceable and tougher then it looks. For instance just today I had one go sideways, hit the excavator, nearly killed me, I left the brand new saw in the cut and ran like a scared pupper dog at the vets office... saw was fine, but if I'd of tried to save it, I wouldn't be typing this right now....

Thank you for not telling me I am a complete idiot. Made a few farmers backcuts in the day, cut a few trees that should have chaired and didn't etc. That one might have gone sideways but not the side I was on, took care of the badside first and with great care not to pinch my saw. And thank God I learned a little about wedges.

 

[northmanlogging]

Thank you for not telling me I am a complete idiot. Made a few farmers backcuts in the day, cut a few trees that should have chaired and didn't etc. That one might have gone sideways but not the side I was on, took care of the badside first and with great care not to pinch my saw. And thank God I learned a little about wedges.

there is a difference between inexperience and being an idiot.

good clean crisp cuts on a stump take time to develop, just make the effort to get them right, and don't be chasing your face cuts... the rest will come with time

 

[Woody912]

there is a difference between inexperience and being an idiot.

good clean crisp cuts on a stump take time to develop, just make the effort to get them right, and don't be chasing your face cuts... the rest will come with time

66 years old. I better start learning a lot faster! lol

 

[northmanlogging]

66 years old. I better start learning a lot faster! lol

relax its more of a muscle memory thing than anything else, knowing where to put the saw doesn't always mean the saw does what its told.

 

[southpaw]

Years back I had an oak of roughly 10" diameter do a barber chair on me and wow did that spook me , it split about 15 ft up the tree .

Did not get hurt or anything but the potential to kill me was certainly there on this, since then I wrap a 1/4" chain with a grab hook about 2 ft above where I make my back cut.

Most of the bigger oaks and ash I usually put a 110 ft. 1/2" cable on them and pull them down with a tractor or pick up truck after I make my face cuts and about 75% or better of the back cut , I am still wrapping the 1/4" chain around these trees directly above the back cut

Just a simple firewood cutter and I don't mind at all of going thru all the extra steps as not getting hurt is priority #1 , some say that I am overly paranoid with these steps I go thru but that's ok with me

If a tree looks to dangerous with widow makers from a large canopy or rotted out around the trunk I just leave it alone and go on to something that's looks safe for me to handle , even those huge oaks laying on the ground are plenty dangerous.... will spend what time I think is necessary with chains , cables and hand winches to make sure these things don't do a death roll on me

How much get's done in a day for me really is not that important , the main thing is to not get me or others hurt doing it

66 years old your not a spring chicken anymore but you got a lot of good years left , still see guys out there in the eighties working around this stuff , stay safe

 

[northmanlogging]

just an educated opinion, I don't advocate wrapping with chains to prevent chairs, chains don't like shock loads, and a 1/4 chain certainly isn't up to the task of stopping a chair on its best day.

Learning and using the proper cuts will prevent chairs.

 

[woodfarmer]

Fell a couple more 30” Ash. These are just cut the old fashion way, face cut and back cut. No fancy boring.

 

[southpaw]

just an educated opinion, I don't advocate wrapping with chains to prevent chairs, chains don't like shock loads, and a 1/4 chain certainly isn't up to the task of stopping a chair on its best day.

Learning and using the proper cuts will prevent chairs.

You know you made me think about the 1/4" chain and I probably use that to much , use to use 3/8" but it can be a bear to wrestle around a tree and most of the stuff I cut is around 10"-12" , still who knows how much power a tree even that size can unleash when it chairs

Have I had a tree chair on me since I have been chaining them NO , that only happened to me once around 15 years ago and like I said it spooked me as there was nothing unusual about the tree in the 1st place , it really was not a leaner and nothing about this tree struck me as being a problem

I will keep on chaining them like I have been doing but going back to the 3/8" link is a safer choice, thanks for mentioning that the 1/4" may be inadequate I appreciate that comment

 

[catbuster]

I’ve had a long, pedantic, physics & mechanics of materials-based, painful argument on here about how those chains do nothing but either a.) break and become shrapnel, or b.) fly up the tree because they don’t hold onto the tree the way you expect. Your best bet is a lot of wraps of chain that have the slack taken out and then gotten tight with a chain binder. Even then the coefficient of friction of a chain on bark probably isn’t enough to keep them from sliding when the tree splits.

I’ve seen the slanted release cut mostly on vidyas of Europeans doing the stump dance. I think it’s mostly a get away fast type deal. Don’t think it will prevent a barberchair... Because it won’t. That’s why you’re bore cutting. I cut mine flat, and tend to agree with Matt on his above points.

 

[southpaw]

I’ve had a long, pedantic, physics & mechanics of materials-based, painful argument on here about how those chains do nothing but either a.) break and become shrapnel, or b.) fly up the tree because they don’t hold onto the tree the way you expect. Your best bet is a lot of wraps of chain that have the slack taken out and then gotten tight with a chain binder. Even then the coefficient of friction of a chain on bark probably isn’t enough to keep them from sliding when the tree splits.

I’ve seen the slanted release cut mostly on vidyas of Europeans doing the stump dance. I think it’s mostly a get away fast type deal. Don’t think it will prevent a barberchair... Because it won’t. That’s why you’re bore cutting. I cut mine flat, and tend to agree with Matt on his above points.

You bring up some points that I never thought about , like the chain just walking up the tree that makes sense .

A guy could make a few deep notches around the circumference of the tree to stop the walking part of the chain , never did that but just thinking out loud here

Any big trees that I do bother with I usually cable them and use horse power to finish them off after I cut 75% thru , not saying I am a good wood cutter it's just how I do things

 

[Woody912]

Years back I had an oak of roughly 10" diameter do a barber chair on me and wow did that spook me , it split about 15 ft up the tree .

Did not get hurt or anything but the potential to kill me was certainly there on this, since then I wrap a 1/4" chain with a grab hook about 2 ft above where I make my back cut.

Most of the bigger oaks and ash I usually put a 110 ft. 1/2" cable on them and pull them down with a tractor or pick up truck after I make my face cuts and about 75% or better of the back cut , I am still wrapping the 1/4" chain around these trees directly above the back cut

Just a simple firewood cutter and I don't mind at all of going thru all the extra steps as not getting hurt is priority #1 , some say that I am overly paranoid with these steps I go thru but that's ok with me

If a tree looks to dangerous with widow makers from a large canopy or rotted out around the trunk I just leave it alone and go on to something that's looks safe for me to handle , even those huge oaks laying on the ground are plenty dangerous.... will spend what time I think is necessary with chains , cables and hand winches to make sure these things don't do a death roll on me

How much get's done in a day for me really is not that important , the main thing is to not get me or others hurt doing it

66 years old your not a spring chicken anymore but you got a lot of good years left , still see guys out there in the eighties working around this stuff , stay safe

I have pulled a bunch of wrong way leaning trees and yanked hell out of them but never made one chair but I know it can happen. Working down in a ravine right now with lousy escape routes and I need them to fall uphill so I can get them out. Put a winch on my tractor couple days ago, they will be falling while I push a button from far away if there is any question and since they are ash lot of widow makers up there.

just an educated opinion, I don't advocate wrapping with chains to prevent chairs, chains don't like shock loads, and a 1/4 chain certainly isn't up to the task of stopping a chair on its best day.

Learning and using the proper cuts will prevent chairs.

1/4" 70,000# test is pretty strong stuff and not too bad to carry around. Do not know about it's chair stopping capabilities

 

[Redgap]

lots of folks didn't pay attention in physics class?

Or they saw some other moron do it and are just mimicking something they don't fully understand.

I think the thinking is that that tooth of stump sticking up is supposed to prevent a chair (it won't) much like the farmer/sloping back cut, that also doesn't work.

The right way, is to do as you did in the picture and make the release cut parallel but just below the main back cut, so if **** does go sideway the saw has a better chance of not being launched with the rest of the tree, it could still happen but its greatly minimized.

The other thing to do is just ****ing abandon the saw to its fate, its replaceable and tougher then it looks. For instance just today I had one go sideways, hit the excavator, nearly killed me, I left the brand new saw in the cut and ran like a scared pupper dog at the vets office... saw was fine, but if I'd of tried to save it, I wouldn't be typing this right now....

Amen brother...I chased a face cut and hung around trying to save a saw, both on the same tree, which rolled onto my foot. NEVER again. I’ve got plenty of saws, one less won’t kill me...but a tree might.

 

[northmanlogging]

I have pulled a bunch of wrong way leaning trees and yanked hell out of them but never made one chair but I know it can happen. Working down in a ravine right now with lousy escape routes and I need them to fall uphill so I can get them out. Put a winch on my tractor couple days ago, they will be falling while I push a button from far away if there is any question and since they are ash lot of widow makers up there.

1/4" 70,000# test is pretty strong stuff and not too bad to carry around. Do not know about it's chair stopping capabilities

70,000# 1/4 chain?

you mean 3500# 1/4 chain on a good day, more like 1500# WLL if you want to talk reality.

Hell I'm not even sure that 3/4 chain has 70,000# MLL

 

[catbuster]

70,000# 1/4 chain?

you mean 3500# 1/4 chain on a good day, more like 1500# WLL if you want to talk reality.

Hell I'm not even sure that 3/4 chain has 70,000# MLL

Probably 70 ksi steel. Still not smart to wrap a tree with a chain.

 

[Woody912]

Probably 70 ksi steel. Still not smart to wrap a tree with a chain.

Locally I have seen 30k test, 43k test and 70k test. Very great deal of difference between them, I have not even bent a link of the 70K stuff. And still not advocating it's use for use for tree wrapping.

 

[southpaw]

30 43 & 70 are grades of chain NOT the working limits in Lbs.

A grade 30 chain 1/4" link has a working limit 1300 Lbs.
The following link gives good information on chains.

https://blog.uscargocontrol.com/comparing-chain-grades/

 

[northmanlogging]

I've bent and broke 1/2 grade 70 chains, tore 1/4 chains to shreds, adn stretched 5/16 straight to the point they looked like a single rod of steel.

Certainly not something I want to use to hold shock forces, inches from my head.

 

[northmanlogging]

Bent the hooks straight on 3/8 grade 70

Sheared the pins on all of em

seen snap chain binders come apart just from using a cheater bar, let alone come apart in an accident

the ratchet binders are nice but try using one on a tree and it will bend and break.

And more then once I've pulled or sheared the 5/8 hardened retaining pin on receiver hitches (usually when log/dumb trucks are involved), once with a 3/4 ford and a nylon "jerk" rope... launched the hook right into the tailgate of the ford, the rest usually from pulling with an excavator or dozer

IF your gonna be dumb you better be tough.