Felling Advice - Snagged Trees

[Fishin' Rod]

I have a possibly dangerous felling situation and would appreciate some additional insight from the experts.

I have two old (90?) Siberian Elms in a wind break that need to come down. Both are still alive and appear to have healthy wood at and above my cutting height. Both trees are about 25-27" DBH. I have felled at least 100 of these elms (of various sizes), and the healthy ones appear to cut and fall fairly predictably.

One tree is leaning and has a main leader caught in a large fork of the adjacent tree.View attachment DSC_2960 (2).JPG

I fear that when I fell the tree on the left, the tree on the right will pull out of the sandy soil and fall at the same time.

I have cleared escape routes in all directions. There is no need to precisely place the felled tree. It just needs to come down before the crown dies back and starts creating widowmakers above my head.

I think I can safely notch and start the back cut as normal. I plan to leave a hinge about 4x what I am used to, and start doing small cuts and running away. Watch for 1" then repeat as needed.

I also think I can nick the hinge faster with my chainsaw, than I can hit a wedge a few more blows. However, if the experts say to get some wedges working, then I will follow that advice. (In my limited experience, you can bail out with a hammer in hand much more quickly than with a chainsaw in hand.)

Thanks for the help, Fishin' Rod.

 

[rwoods]

No expert, but suggest you post some more pictures and explain which, if not both of these trees, is the one you want to fall. Proper advice will likely depend upon the foregoing. Ron

 

[SteveSr]

Not familiar with Siberian elm so YMMV. Unless you have good counter experience with this species I would plan on a 2.5 to 3" hinge (10% DBH max) and use wedges to stabilize the tree if necessary to prevent a sit-back. Is this a double cut or single cut situation?

 

[Fishin' Rod]

I want both trees on the ground.

The left tree in the picture will be felled first. It already has a slight lean in the intended direction of fall. I am 99% sure it could be easily felled with a single cut and 1-2 wedges.

The leaning tree on the right has been touching the first tree for 10+ years. The leaning tree is putting pressure on the first tree (to be felled) in almost exactly the same direction as the intended fall line.

I am used to cutting trees that have straight trunks, but a slight lean - they are easy to drop in a very safe manner because the forces on the tree are obvious. I am also used to cutting trees that have a straight trunk with no lean, but a clearly unbalanced crown - they are also easy to fell in the predicted direction.

However, the examples immediately above have 90% of the weight going straight down into the stump, and 10% of the weight unbalanced (or leaning). I am worried about the snag tree, because I believe it is pushing on the first tree (left tree) at about the same height a mythical giant would place his hands to optimally push it over.

If the leaning tree is perfectly attached to the ground, then it will exert 0% force on the supporting tree as I make my cuts. However, it could have weak roots and would have already fallen over, but for the prop of the supporting tree. If that is the case, then the supporting tree could already have the equivalent of 50%(?) of its weight severely leaning - prior to any cutting and wedging on my part.

Please note that Picture #2 is reversed from the view of the picture in my OP. In #2, the first tree to be felled is now on the RIGHT.
View attachment DSC_2958.JPG
Scott, I think the spacing should work out well for your recommendation.
1. Cut the notch.
2. Start the back cut, but leave a very wide hinge for safety.
3. Insert a wedge and pound until firm.

At that point, I should have plenty of room to work my bar in the cut and have a few inches of clearance from the tip of the wedge.

4. Take small cuts out of the hinge. Step back and put saw on ground. If no movement, pound wedge again until firm. Repeat as necessary. Probably add a second wedge if hinge is getting thin and tree has still not gone over.

MY GUESS is that the leaning tree (second tree) will slowly rip out of the ground after the support tree (first tree felled) goes over. I just wanted some additional recommendations, or "surprises" to watch out for, from the people that have experience in that type of situation with large trees.

Thanks!

 

[SteveH]

From the photos, it appears to me you are on the right track. [I myself wouldn't bother with wedges, but they would work.] Obviously you'd want both trees to fall in the same direction if they come down together. I'd cut a big notch of the side of the tree away from the leaner, then just make the back cut, and I'd go slowly with that. Any creaking or movement of the tree you're cutting and I'b be backing away for a few moments to see what happens. Then go up and cut some more, a little more. I would advise against any chance of cutting through the hinge., that could make for a bad day. But it sounds as if this is about what you are proposing. Looks like it will go just fine. Go slowly, no hurry.

 

[mojo jojo]

Cut the left tree normaly (slightly smaller cutout), end backcut early so the tree doesnt fall, but becomes unstable. Then just cut the right tree on the left one, so the weight of the right tree knocks the left one.

 

[Fishin' Rod]

mojo,

That was exactly my initial plan. Then I realized that if I got the cut deep into the right tree (leaning tree) and the first tree still did not go over, then I would REALLY have a dangerous situation that is far above my pay grade.

Part of the reason I stay safe as an amateur lumberjack, is that I always add in the possibility that I might **** things up a little!

However, thanks for your advice. I truly do not know which option would be the "safest". I think I might do a lot of cut, stand back, and watch on this project.

 

[SteveSr]

mojo,

That was exactly my initial plan. Then I realized that if I got the cut deep into the right tree (leaning tree) and the first tree still did not go over, then I would REALLY have a dangerous situation that is far above my pay grade.

Part of the reason I stay safe as an amateur lumberjack, is that I always add in the possibility that I might **** things up a little!

However, thanks for your advice. I truly do not know which option would be the "safest". I think I might do a lot of cut, stand back, and watch on this project.

Still can't see who is hanging who from the photos. My first crack would probably be the one in front in the direction of fall assuming that it isn't going to get hung. I am assuming that this is the single stem tree. If the other one comes down same time then no problem. It also looks like a good escape route to the right of the single stem.

 

[mojo jojo]

The left tree must be cut to the point it starts to lean. If the right tree doesnt move then you can cut left tree all the way. If the right tree does move, then you leave the left tree and start cutting right tree. Its 99% it will go...then again its always nice to have some pulling equipment on standby.

 

[toadman]

Subbed, curious what the experts think & outcome.
I can't see anything from the pictures that would lead me to believe that the second tree would fall down from root failure, but I can't see the whole picture from, well a photo.
I advise caution.
Personally, in this scenario I would likely throw a line into the first one, cut till it shifts a touch at the crown & pull it the rest of the way over from a safe distance.
The second one will either follow it down, no escape to worry about as your not in line, or given the lean be a easy fell.
without seeing it in person, I can't be sure what I would do.

 

[daddy]

The left tree must be cut to the point it starts to lean. If the right tree doesnt move then you can cut left tree all the way. If the right tree does move, then you leave the left tree and start cutting right tree. Its 99% it will go...then again its always nice to have some pulling equipment on standby.

That's what I would do.

 

[rwoods]

Once again not an expert, leave it for someone else since you don't feel confident.

Otherwise assuming mojo jojo's left and right are the same as mine and there is nothing outside the pictures influencing otherwise, I am with him. Put in your face cut to the single stem tree, then back cut it to slight movement or before if you think the fall of the other tree will be enough to push it over, insert wedges just in case it may sit back, cut the second tree and get out of the way. Hang a line in each beforehand if you are really concerned that they won't fall - a mojo toadman combo. Or just do the toadman, pull the single stem over and let the second tree do whatever it is going to do then address it. From an internet perspective, I lean toward doing the mojo, but if I were there I would ponder the advisability of doing both face cuts first and hanging a line or two or none.

I will say again if you are not comfortable then leave it for someone else - it doesn't look like a scenario where you want to hesitate in executing your plan.

Bear in mind that I am no expert, mojo jojo is apparently located on a highway, toadman is young, and no one other than you is there for a proper assessment.

Ron

 

[catbuster]

If you’re not comfortable doing it, don’t do it. Ever. Bravado rarely helps in situations where death is an outcome. Maybe try to learn from someone who’s doing it. Whatever you do, for god’s sake wear a hard hat. I’ve been hit enough from stuff breaking out and I’ve never regretted wearing one.

I can’t size the trees up over the internet, but from what little I can see I’d probably send them both in the direction of the lean. Set one (left) up, get it tight with wedges, and knock it over with the right one. When you’re setting a tree up, do not leave a big hinge. That sucker will split/chair/whatever you call it on you and you’re in for a headache at the least. All you want is enough to keep it from leaving. Then knock it over.

Humboldts are helpful here. If it’s really hung up, when the right tree goes it will push the top of the left tree hard. That creates a huge moment at the base and if the hinge lets go the nature of the face helps prevent the tree from sliding back off the stump.

 

[Mad Professor]

Something is up. I'm getting no pictures on this thread?

 

[rwoods]

I thought the same, Howe’s, his links are in his text. Ron

 

[irhunter]

I have a possibly dangerous felling situation and would appreciate some additional insight from the experts.

I have two old (90?) Siberian Elms in a wind break that need to come down. Both are still alive and appear to have healthy wood at and above my cutting height. Both trees are about 25-27" DBH. I have felled at least 100 of these elms (of various sizes), and the healthy ones appear to cut and fall fairly predictably.

One tree is leaning and has a main leader caught in a large fork of the adjacent tree.View attachment 857230

start doing small cuts and running away.

you can bail out with a hammer in hand much more quickly than with a chainsaw in hand.

I think you may be in too deep. I would suggest, doing a careful inventory of your friends...do you know anyone who is better at this, than you are? Buy them a 6-pack...they get your wood on the ground...you learn from how they cut it.

Roy

 

[kyle1!]

$200 would probably get those trees on the ground. If unsure find someone experienced and pay them for their knowledge/skill.

 

[PV Hiker]

Picture 1 you can see the right tree leaning could be because the left double trunk has been leaning a long time onto it, as the outside trunk near the ground has been beefed up with compsatiting wood growth.

If tree with double trunk can be cut and drug out with grip hoist or tractor i would try that.

Risky but if said double trunk is resting on outer tree, could go ahead and face/back cut it with largest holding wood width possible. The other tree face cut and bore/plunge cut behind holding wood, it is a heavy leaner, and cut back allowing holding wood to prevent barber chair. The back of tree will be holding wood that would need to be cut fast to release it and run your escape path to clear the falling two trees. The trees cut in the same directions the force is pushing.

Just a thought... not being there in person one can't see all the behavior and stresses that would be released once cut. See a professional opinion if necessary. Good luck and be safe!

 

[PV Hiker]

Like to add for safety reasons use a bar long enough to cut from the safe side only. Have enough of a chainsaw to power fast and a sharp chain.

 

[pbilly]

can you cripple the front tree and then cut the back tree making them both go at once?