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Is it the Wood or the Chain?

Discussion in 'Milling & Saw Mills' started by Calisdad, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    I'm just getting around to milling up some pine I have on my property.

    I put a new (bought 18 months ago) Woodland Pro rip chain on and it's not cutting well at all.
    I'm getting fine dust. I only get ribbons when going through knots.
    The material is a large sugar pine I dropped 18 months ago.
    I left the bark on to slow drying (or was just too lazy to peel it) but it comes right off now.
    The moisture content is 35% as we had a very wet winter.

    So for comparison I put a 'regular' chain on (30 degree grind) and it cuts about 35 to 50% faster.
    Chips are larger but it's still dust.

    Do the WP chains need raker adjustment right out of the box?
    thanks-
    C-dad
     
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  2. LonestarStihl

    LonestarStihl Addicted to ArboristSite

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    If I'm not mistaken, because I haven't actually started milling yet, when you are milling it actually creates more of a dust because of the way you are cutting. It depends on the direction you are cutting to the grain
     
  3. Mac&Homelite

    Mac&Homelite Addicted to ArboristSite

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    What! It's a ton of fun, what are you waiting for? But you are correct, milling does creates a lot of dust compared to normal cutting.
    You should however, be getting rather coarse dust, not so much fine stuff. I can check later on my Carlton milling chain, but I think the rakers gauges get set to the same depth as normal chain. Interesting though, I seem to cut quicker and leave a better finish with milling chain over a 30-35 degree cutter.
     
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  4. LonestarStihl

    LonestarStihl Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I thought I had heard it was more dust like. I need to buy a mill eventually. My ms660 is currently getting an overhaul and some pampering.
     
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  5. Jimbo209

    Jimbo209 ArboristSite Guru

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    I got small chips untill the mill slipped in clamps and hit the bolts in dry hard salmon gum down for 10y. 660 @ 36" and using stock A3EP CARLTON USA (NOT CANADA) that I gradually made 10° from 30°
    I did meet BobL and pick his brain in person. Find the progressive raker guide on it's own post or hidden in 101 milling thread
    What saw power head, bar length, bar make and as chain guage are out using
    Maybe try a aggressive 8degree plus raker angle in our sugar pine.bwhich might be 30-50 thousands raker drop depending on saw and bar
    I'd go for 2-3 good solid swipes on each raker and try that.

    Not too sure about the hook and other angles needed though off the top of my head
     
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  6. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    " progressive raker " I think that might be the most overlooked yet important phrase in this whole game.
    The chain is out of the box fresh. And yes once I learned the difference between 30 and 10 degrees it was a no brainer.
    That is why I'm a bit stumped.

    I'm using a Makita DCS6400 with a Bailey Big Bore kit.
    I just had a fit with it having poor performance so I replaced the piston,ring, carb, fuel lines, filters plug and finally the coil.
    It runs much better but still having a 'hard to start when hot' issue.

    I took 3 to 4 strokes off the rakers before I removed it from the saw so maybe I should test it.
    It's just been ridiculously hot here.

    BTW- after seeing BobL's polished aluminum mill with the brass fittings and quick release hardware there is no WAY I'm posting a pic of my rig. lol
    That machine will find it's way into a museum when he's done with it. ;-)
     
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  7. Mac&Homelite

    Mac&Homelite Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Hot start issues may be due to the needle valve lever being too high. Couldn't get my saw in the picture started either when warm, bumped the lever down, starts every time. Here's my homemade setup.[​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  8. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    I like your set up M&H, and that walnut!

    Needle valve lever? I have 3 adjustment screws before getting into carb- low, high and idle.
    Being a new carb I haven't messed with them.
    btw- I'm at 3000' elevation.
     
  9. Mac&Homelite

    Mac&Homelite Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Thanks! It's actually elm, walnut I wish. The needle valve is indeed inside the carb under the plate with the large diaphragm. It's impossible to miss and all you have to do is bend down the tab a little bit. If it's sitting too high, the saw will usually start, but give a huge headache when restarting. I ran around in circles for about a month with this ms361 and just last week with a Poulan 4000 with the same problem. Super simple fix, should have no problem with it.
     
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  10. BobL

    BobL No longer addicted to AS

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    Sounds like rakers to me and is pretty typical of most chainsaw operators - even those with years of experience who still don't really understand how chains work.

    Post a side on, magnified, clear photo of a couple of cutters and I will diagnose your cutters. Like this if you can do it - or a magnified as you can get it.
    Nicecutter.jpg
     
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  11. SeMoTony

    SeMoTony Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Most chains need adjustment to meet the use they will be used for. Power of saw, the width of cut, type of wood all play. Manufacturers play for their own average in the making of cutters & raker height. If you have a lotta power sharp cutters then a larger raker angle wood cut in N American soft woods. A smaller angle for hard woods with same powerhead. BobL has the best instruction for setting up chain for milling in the "CS milling 101" thread. From those directions to start, we each can fine tune to what we are running loops thru logs with for our own optimum.
    Stay safe while you enjoy
     
  12. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    Sorry guys- distracted by the Detwiler Fire- almost had to bug out.
    I'll post a pic soon as I can.
     
  13. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    Well I cleaned everything up and reassembled the saw.
    After seeing what the wood did in the heat after opening it up I'm moving on to newer wood.
    When wet it looked OK but quickly dried in this heat and the punkiness is quite obvious.
    The photo of the chain is after I removed a gummy substance that was likely slowing things down.
    I did take 3 or 4 strokes off the rakers too.
    I usually add oil to the bar every few minutes but I'm going to try it without that.
    On the carb- I just backed the low side out about a sixth of a turn.
    I opened it up and the needle lever was flush with the casing where it's supposed to be.
    If that doesn't work I'll play with the rebuild carb I just did.

    Progressive grind- does that mean the rakers are not the same?
    That they get progressively lower for a few links and then repeat?

    thanks-
    C-dad
     

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  14. john taliaferro

    john taliaferro Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Don,t cut the drip off , i run a steady drip of used cooking oil seams to work good , only side affect is i want fish for lunch.
     
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  15. BobL

    BobL No longer addicted to AS

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    3 issues show up immediately from your photo.
    1) the rakers angles are uneven and are not low enough.
    Low raker angles are less aggressive and make more dust, The raker angle for B is only 4.6º while the angle for raker for A is only 5.6º. You don't say what length bar you are running but with your saw in your softwoods you could run at least 7.5º maybe even 8º and 6.5º in hardwoods - I run 6.5º in our hardwoods which are about twice as hard as yours. Stock chain is typically only 5.6º raker angle so 4.6 is definitely way too low and that will be the main cause of your problem.

    2) the raker tops are flat.
    This add significant friction to cutting and will drain power. Even just rounding over the rakers will drop your raker angle probably enough to take you out of the "dust zone".

    3) Use more hook.
    In your softwoods you can use at least 5º more hook or Top plate cutting angle (see http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...nts-tips-and-tricks.93458/page-6#post-4107285). This is easy to do with a grinder. if you use a file and file guide then use a size larger file in the file holder specified for that file, If you want more hook use the large file in a size smaller file holder. If you do the latter you may need to add more hook.

    Don't goo too crazy with the raker angles and hook or you will just end up bogging down the saw. if that happens remove some cutter and that will lower the raker angle.

    Raker angles can be +/-0.5º but if the odd one sneaks a bit outside that don't sweat it will go blunt quicker and she up as more glint on the edge and require more swipes to de-glint the cutter edge.
    Read the stick above to find out more.

    CUtters.jpg

    Below are some examples of raker profile.
    Your are like the Orange line, high friction and requires greater raker depth to achieve high raker angle.
    The nest best thing is the green line - less friction than the orange.
    Red to blue will have smoother contact with the wood so probably lowest fiction
    Brown will allow the raker to rock its way into the wood (yes the raker does do that a little eve when flat topped) more than any of the others so cutter will take big chips, only really works on big saws - the fairly threads the wood when its a big saw in smaller wood, expect a rougher finish.
    raker2009.jpg
     
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  16. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks BobL.

    Guilty on the flat rakers. I took 3 to 4 swipes off them before removing the chain from the saw to clean it.
    Other than a couple of swipes off the teeth this is a new Woodland Pro chain mounted on a 36" bar.
    It's made 2 and a half passes through an 8' x 16" pine log.
    If I hadn't hit the rakers the angle would have been even less.
    What diameter file do you use to get the hook you want?

    thanks for your time.
    C-dad
     
  17. BobL

    BobL No longer addicted to AS

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    LOL

    Well I have 20+ chains so it varies and so I will give some examples.

    If the chain has a recommended 3/16 diameter file then using that file in a smaller (5/32) guide will lower the file and produce a greater hook. If you use a slightly bigger (13/64) file in the 3/16 guide that will also increase the hook. Even more hook can be ordained using the 13/64 file a 5/32 guide although I would advise against doing this straight up - try the other combos first.

    Many 3/8 chains recommend a 7/32 file but the next size up is 15/64 which is hard to get. A similar effect can be achieved using a 7/32 file in 3/16 file (haven seen a 13/64 file guide yet).

    Increasing the hook will enable a powerful saw to self feed better but the penalty is it will go bunt quicker especially in Aussie hardwoods. Because I want my chains to last all the way through a cut I actually use a smaller file (13/64) on my 3/8 chains but put it in a 3/16 file holder (as I said above - haven't seen a 13/64 file holder anyway_. This produces enough hook to self feed and provides the fastest cutting times in the harder woods I cut. I would not do this in your softer woods and start with just the recommended file in a size smaller file guide.

    I can remember who it was that posted this (it could have been Mntgun, or even me!). Asyou can see the changes are hard to see except for the second last one - the last image is chain out of the box.
    comparisonsall.jpg

    Here is a comparison between Will Mallof's (top) and my cutters and you can see there's not much in it.
    MalloffBobLchain.jpg
     
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  18. Calisdad

    Calisdad ArboristSite Lurker

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    Thanks again-

    I went over the chain today and reshaped the rakers.
    Then I examined each one with a straight edge.
    Some of them had very little angle so I readjusted them.
    I'll have to see what I can turn up in the way of file holders.
     
  19. Ted Jenkins

    Ted Jenkins Firewood by TJ

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    Here is what I found if your rakers are too high you get quite a bit of dust. The crazy thing about your rakers is if they are too high the chain is chewed up very fast. For hard wood that is some what dry you need semi chisel bit and nothing else. But of course you knew that. When the rakers are too low the chain chatters like crazy so I file as needed. The pictures that were taken show chisel bit chain not a great combo for certain woods. Thanks
     

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