Is logging still a viable career path?

[madhatte]

Many Tree Care businesses I've seen over the years were started by top notch climbers, and failed, because they were not top notch business men.

But at UPS I got 8 weeks vacation, health care, pension, 401K. My pension with all of the deductibles taken out is $75,000 a year, and I don't have to touch my Social security or 401K yet.

You're speaking sound wisdom here. I had a business in the 90's doing contract timber cruising, which is how I discovered that I have exactly zero business acumen. I ended up joining the Navy to dig myself out of that hole, and promised myself that I'd go back to the woods, but on the other side of the contract. I've been a civilian Fed for 11 years now, with military time counting toward retirement. I'm doing the same sort of work now that I was when I was in my mid-20's, plus more kinds of work including fire. The work is more interesting, the pay is better, and there may be a light at the end of the tunnel if the whole world doesn't burn down one way or another before I'm of retirement age.

To the OP: I know plenty of sharp folks making a living by their wits and by their skills in the contract world. I also know plenty of folks who drift from job to job with no stability, living not from contract to contract but from paycheck to paycheck. I can honestly recommend that you feel things out, don't go all in on anything before you're sure that it's gonna at least sort of work, and keep a backup plan. A skilled and clever person should always be able to land on their feet no matter how rough things get, but you gotta keep developing and nurturing skill. The world changes pretty quickly.

 

[ArtB]

If you quit your machining job, I'd only do the situation you describe as was already said on Wed... e.g ...Sounds more like you need to invest and be a partner

We (it really IS a family decision) thought about either building houses or logging back in the 70's. Engineer at big company that laid off 125,000 out of 150,000 employees in early 1970s.
Stayed with eng though, soon had enough to buy a couple of small dozers and some forest land to satisfy the woodsy urges, but just as a hobby.
In hindsight, the way real estate has gone in this area since the 70's would have been pretty well off now building houses (assuming I bought land back then and thru the 80s), but that is hindsight.

So, one never knows the 'what ifs'.

Sure, there were times when there was an urge to quit because of conflicts with co-workers, but all thing pass. And, like you say, you do have the family responsibilities to consider. And also consider if your machining job is stable, any risk of yours going away via CNC, or are you CNC operator already?

Interesting sidelight that is that the last high school vocational class in logging IIRC was a high school on Oly peninsula in the 70's. Discontinued sometime around mid-70's, which was an indication back then as to low expectations of future of logging as a career as an employee in WA state.

I do have a neighbor that went into the tree service business and now has 4 employees, but his wife has a decent paying job for the slow times starting but kids were all in school so no big daycare expenses.
Think he says he can pull in $2-$3k a day gross around here (mostly climbing and removal of 140 ft to 160 ft DF next to houses) as there are many high end houses with relatively well off owners that can afford tree services and get afraid as their trees get taller. Have noticed that the new developments here now clear cut vs. leaving ANY larger trees.

 

[rarefish383]

Art, that's right about where my friends are. One has 3 full time crews and might put on a couple extra crews in good weather. If the work gets dangerous and takes special skills, the price can go up, a lot. So, if he shows up with a knuckle boom, chipper and truck, skidder with truck and trailer and stump grinder with truck and trailer, you're probably getting pretty close to half a million in equipment. Not even looking at all the little stuff like saws, ropes, etc, Joe.

 

[rarefish383]

OK, here I go again. I jump over to a new forum just to see what's going on, and I'm gonna Pee a Puddle in your Pumpkin Pie. I keep re reading this and it looks worse every time. You're thinking of tying on with a 2 man "logging opp". If one is felling, and one is skidding, who is running to the mill? I know what it's like to be 29 and kinda lost. I got out of the tree biz at 29, for two reasons. One, I had worked from age 26 to 29 without one single day off. In the tree biz your customers don't want to take off a whole day just to show you one tree they want removed, so you do estimates on Saturday and Sunday. Then there was a clash between my wife and my mom. They were both accountants, my wife wanted to take over and my mom wasn't ready. I wasn't going to let the business come between all the people I loved, so I got out. My dad made $800,000 the last year he worked, I gave that up for piece of mind. I've made a lot of bad choices in my life. I don't call them mistakes, I call them learning experiences. I can look at my screw ups and say, Oh Well, I learned something. Can you do that? I still think this sounds more like a firewood opp than a logging opp. If you have supplies of firewood, jump over to that forum and seek advice there. I just don't see how you can be successful in logging with a 2, soon to be, 3 man opp. I'm just not seeing it. On the internet, every one can be brave, and tell you to live your dream. If I were your financial adviser, I'd want a lot more info. Do you have a financial adviser? You should. Dreams are great, but dreams take plans, to become real. I don't see a plan here. We need a lot more info to give an intelligent answer. Know this, I do care what happens to you, Joe.

 

[thumbilly]

Ok so ill try again. To clarify i feel this to be more of a stepping stone. Either into a partnership or onto something more for myself or maybe a bigger company. Its hard to explain the entire aspect of my situation. Now logging here is a bit different. Michigan has been logged to death for years. Nothing gets big anymore. So the way most guys around here do it is they harvest for lumber for the saw mill and for firewood at the same time. Especially with all the dead ash. Its getting out there for good lumber. I had a big long explanation in my head at work but my mind doesnt flow well enough to get all the things i think typed out. Right now im a full time machinist. (Any archery guys on here? I work at the factory thats builds moxie bows). I work every extra waking second i have doing firewood. I get given a woods full of dead ash and i harvest it from start to finish. Most of the time as a one man band. I also farm a few acres and bale some grass hay to sell. Do some wrenching on the side for the neighbors. (Was a mechanic for 6 years). I currently have about 50 acres of woods to clear the dead ash out of. What kinda spurred this whole thing is i asked these guys if they wanted to team up and get them cleaned out. Working the hours i do there just isnt enough time. I have a small arsenal of saws, a skid steer with tracks and a grapple bucket and access to all the eq. at my parents farm. Oh and a 5ton military truck i haul the wood with. I can fabricate and weld. I spent thousands of dollars on snap tools only to decide i had enough of busted knuckles. I have almost no machinist tools and i dont want to go down the same road again. Ive spent the last few years learning and growing moving towards going head first into firewood.

I actually quit my first machinist job last year and when back part time at the mechanic shop so i could sell wood. It ended up being a warm winter and i didn't sell much. Wasnt a big deal i didnt have a big bank note or anything. Then it just happened that i hauled a load of hay for my dad to my current boss's deer ranch. We got talking about my skills and he ended up sweet talking me into this job. Most of it was just hot air. One way or the other im not working there for the next 40 years. Im young and able now and dont want to get a bunch of time in somewhere and not be able to take a chance and follow my passion.

This is the job description his exact text. (You'd be doing anything from cutting trees down running skidster marking the logs out buckin up welding and wrench with us. Yeah i think youd fit in just fine! ****** workin in the winter at times but we dont alwaus log we plow snow 2 and im sure youd do fine at that 2. Was thinking about paying you daily be cash at the end of the week and you could still do your own fire wd sales we normally work 5 days a week but some days we don't work Ben's Weather or equipment is now and sometimes we have to mark and look at jobs to line them up days like that if you weren't working for us you still have time to do your firewood sales). Unedited obviously.

Theres lots more i wanted to say but its impossible for me to truly convey the whole picture. On a side note im not in the best shape ive ever been but im 6'5" 250lbs. Decent not lean and ripped. Im also a volunteer firefighter so danger is nothing new.

Just fyi i failed English class twice and speech once because i cant write to save my life.

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[Slicksty6]

Love the truck and trailer!

 

[paco_06]

Ok so ill try again. To clarify i feel this to be more of a stepping stone. Either into a partnership or onto something more for myself or maybe a bigger company. Its hard to explain the entire aspect of my situation. Now logging here is a bit different. Michigan has been logged to death for years. Nothing gets big anymore. So the way most guys around here do it is they harvest for lumber for the saw mill and for firewood at the same time. Especially with all the dead ash. Its getting out there for good lumber. I had a big long explanation in my head at work but my mind doesnt flow well enough to get all the things i think typed out. Right now im a full time machinist. (Any archery guys on here? I work at the factory thats builds moxie bows). I work every extra waking second i have doing firewood. I get given a woods full of dead ash and i harvest it from start to finish. Most of the time as a one man band. I also farm a few acres and bale some grass hay to sell. Do some wrenching on the side for the neighbors. (Was a mechanic for 6 years). I currently have about 50 acres of woods to clear the dead ash out of. What kinda spurred this whole thing is i asked these guys if they wanted to team up and get them cleaned out. Working the hours i do there just isnt enough time. I have a small arsenal of saws, a skid steer with tracks and a grapple bucket and access to all the eq. at my parents farm. Oh and a 5ton military truck i haul the wood with. I can fabricate and weld. I spent thousands of dollars on snap tools only to decide i had enough of busted knuckles. I have almost no machinist tools and i dont want to go down the same road again. Ive spent the last few years learning and growing moving towards going head first into firewood.

I actually quit my first machinist job last year and when back part time at the mechanic shop so i could sell wood. It ended up being a warm winter and i didn't sell much. Wasnt a big deal i didnt have a big bank note or anything. Then it just happened that i hauled a load of hay for my dad to my current boss's deer ranch. We got talking about my skills and he ended up sweet talking me into this job. Most of it was just hot air. One way or the other im not working there for the next 40 years. Im young and able now and dont want to get a bunch of time in somewhere and not be able to take a chance and follow my passion.

This is the job description his exact text. (You'd be doing anything from cutting trees down running skidster marking the logs out buckin up welding and wrench with us. Yeah i think youd fit in just fine! ****** workin in the winter at times but we dont alwaus log we plow snow 2 and im sure youd do fine at that 2. Was thinking about paying you daily be cash at the end of the week and you could still do your own fire wd sales we normally work 5 days a week but some days we don't work Ben's Weather or equipment is now and sometimes we have to mark and look at jobs to line them up days like that if you weren't working for us you still have time to do your firewood sales). Unedited obviously.

Theres lots more i wanted to say but its impossible for me to truly convey the whole picture. On a side note im not in the best shape ive ever been but im 6'5" 250lbs. Decent not lean and ripped. Im also a volunteer firefighter so danger is nothing new.

Just fyi i failed English class twice and speech once because i cant write to save my life.

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OK, now that you've shared that info, from an outsider looking in, I think you now have two options that should sound appealing.
1- like I said earlier become a partner, you definitely have the skills and equipment to bring something to the table. No no l need in just being and under paid hired hand.
2- work out something with your current job to work less hours so you can start to build your own business. Seems there's definitely perks to staying there for a while anyways. Having the equipment available to build your own parts/equipment is a huge bonus. May take a while, but I could see you building an automated firewood processor in your spare time!

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[bowtechmadman]

Where in Michigan?

 

[thumbilly]

Where in Michigan?

Sanilac county. Near argyle to be more specific.

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[woodfarmer]

If I were 15 years younger I’d go for it, I’ll be 50 next year. these other fellows certainly don’t know your local market or situation like you do. You also have a trade to fall back on should things not pan out they way you want them to. However I’m confident you’ll do just fine.

 

[Skeans]

Agreed. Very easy to make $300-500k disappear on used equipment just to get started.

Feller Buncher
Delimber
Skidder
dozer
excavator
log truck
etc, etc, etc.

Or you can go CTL harvester forwarder route 2 guys for under 500 used no one is on the ground L&I likes you a lot better, having a forwarder for yarding and loading is possible.

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[rarefish383]

I've seen some farmers that needed 4 bolts to fasten something and used a flat head screw in one hole, a carriage bolt in one, a brass wood screw in one and a piece of steel bailing wire in the last. You, obviously did NOT grow up on that farm. Very nice work. Best of luck in your endeavors, if you fail at something, don't cry about it. Take it as a lesson learned. Don't ever say "I should have", because you didn't, and there are no do overs. Work hard and be careful. Farming is dangerous work so you have a head start being aware. I'd say follow your heart, but, hearts are notoriously unreliable. Follow you best judgement, talk to you wife, and pray, Joe.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

Or you can go CTL harvester forwarder route 2 guys for under 500 used no one is on the ground L&I likes you a lot better, having a forwarder for yarding and loading is possible.

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Yeah, certainly depends on the ground and timber on what works best. Around here a harvester works find on spruce, but doesn't do so well on birch or poplar.

We do the logging with just 2 guys. I work with my buddy (the guy who's shop I work out of) Typically my buddy with run the buncher for a couple days while I skid, and then he will hop in the delimber and keep the deck clear as I pull wood. If it's a long skid, he'll grab the 2nd skidder and pull wood. Sometimes we will head out to the job with the log truck so the trip isn't "wasted".

The logs either are turned into firewood or lumber. Lumber is done on a Woodmizer, my buddy handles that, though I help from time to time.

Ideally for my setup, we'd need a 2 man crew logging 3-4 days a week and a 3 man crew processing firewood year round. A good secretary to handle scheduling, calls, emails and the books and a mechanic to keep everything going.

I'm just in a spot where I'd need around 100+k or so to cover wages until the demand would hopefully meet production.
As is I could sell twice the firewood than I currently do.

It's pretty stressful and to be honest. I do miss having a 7-3 job and being able to do "me" things after work. Not to say that I work every waking hour, though there's really no "5PM". Even if I head home, I still have people calling or email for firewood, and I'm still thinking, ok, tomorrow I'm doing this, that, and this. There's always something.

I have to deal with customers, landowners, suppliers, etc. The customers want the firewood basically now, the landowners wants to know why we aren't there 40, 50+ hrs a week, I've got to deal with hired hands, often tough to find one that is decent or one that stays more than a few months. All the while I'm nursing old equipment hoping it'll last a few more years. It feels like I could be 4 people and still not be enough.
Oh, and then there's the weather. Sure is nice working outside the couple weeks it's 65* and sunny, but when it's blowing 70mph, -20* or pouring rain with a foot of mud, it's no fun!
Or you get sick, even if just for 3-4 days. I stayed home a few days a while back, I ended up turning off my phone, it barely had time to quit ringing when it was ringing again.

Seems like everytime you get ahead a bit, something happens... Blow a tire, transmission lets go, hydraulic pump, run over a chainsaw, etc.

I don't hate the work, but if I had to support a wife and kids on what I make, I don't think it would happen. I've been at it since 2011.

 

[Skeans]

Yeah, certainly depends on the ground and timber on what works best. Around here a harvester works find on spruce, but doesn't do so well on birch or poplar.

We do the logging with just 2 guys. I work with my buddy (the guy who's shop I work out of) Typically my buddy with run the buncher for a couple days while I skid, and then he will hop in the delimber and keep the deck clear as I pull wood. If it's a long skid, he'll grab the 2nd skidder and pull wood. Sometimes we will head out to the job with the log truck so the trip isn't "wasted".

The logs either are turned into firewood or lumber. Lumber is done on a Woodmizer, my buddy handles that, though I help from time to time.

Ideally for my setup, we'd need a 2 man crew logging 3-4 days a week and a 3 man crew processing firewood year round. A good secretary to handle scheduling, calls, emails and the books and a mechanic to keep everything going.

I'm just in a spot where I'd need around 100+k or so to cover wages until the demand would hopefully meet production.
As is I could sell twice the firewood than I currently do.

It's pretty stressful and to be honest. I do miss having a 7-3 job and being able to do "me" things after work. Not to say that I work every waking hour, though there's really no "5PM". Even if I head home, I still have people calling or email for firewood, and I'm still thinking, ok, tomorrow I'm doing this, that, and this. There's always something.

I have to deal with customers, landowners, suppliers, etc. The customers want the firewood basically now, the landowners wants to know why we aren't there 40, 50+ hrs a week, I've got to deal with hired hands, often tough to find one that is decent or one that stays more than a few months. All the while I'm nursing old equipment hoping it'll last a few more years. It feels like I could be 4 people and still not be enough.
Oh, and then there's the weather. Sure is nice working outside the couple weeks it's 65* and sunny, but when it's blowing 70mph, -20* or pouring rain with a foot of mud, it's no fun!
Or you get sick, even if just for 3-4 days. I stayed home a few days a while back, I ended up turning off my phone, it barely had time to quit ringing when it was ringing again.

Seems like everytime you get ahead a bit, something happens... Blow a tire, transmission lets go, hydraulic pump, run over a chainsaw, etc.

I don't hate the work, but if I had to support a wife and kids on what I make, I don't think it would happen. I've been at it since 2011.

Running a fixed processor head like I still do has some advantages one is line up of lengths of wood for a grapple skidder or track skidder like we use if doing long wood. The head itself was made for the hardwood back there and they hold up to it part of the reason they had the 4 roller was the ability to drive a head up ugly hardwoods. For forwarder cutting most of the time the tree is cut and fell ahead of you or to your no vision side so all processing is done on your vision side into the timber.

This style system works and can make logging affordable, productive, and profitable for a young company to make it.

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[Gologit]

Interesting thread. I don't know anything about logging in thumbilly's part of the world so I'm not qualified to give any specific advice.

One thing for sure, if thumbilly decides to go logging on any kind of full time basis he'll find out that having to cut wood is a whole lot different from getting to cut wood.
If you're going to log, then log.

Bitzer is one of the few I've seen that made a go of it without having any real background or family history in the business. He's the exception to the rule and because of that he's somebody to watch and learn from. His type of logging is the closest thing here to what you want to do.
I'd listen to him.

 

[bitzer]

Interesting thread. I don't know anything about logging in thumbilly's part of the world so I'm not qualified to give any specific advice.

One thing for sure, if thumbilly decides to go logging on any kind of full time basis he'll find out that having to cut wood is a whole lot different from getting to cut wood.
If you're going to log, then log.

Bitzer is one of the few I've seen that made a go of it without having any real background or family history in the business. He's the exception to the rule and because of that he's somebody to watch and learn from. His type of logging is the closest thing here to what you want to do.
I'd listen to him.

Thanks Bob. You're one of the guys that has helped me and I look up to. I think with anything in life when it gets to the point that you can't find any redeeming qualities in what you're doing it's time to move on.

Thumbilly- Logging is hard plain and simple. The life is not for everyone. It's really not for most people. When you're pulling the transmission out of your skidder and it's blowing -20 it sucks. It does. People ask me why not take it to a shop? Well that'll cost a grand just to move it and back and in that time of moving it I'll have er torn apart and put together again and skidding. I can rely on is that after it's done I can say I did that. I beat that and still made it happen and still made money. When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home and yet you push ahead and run one more tank thru the saw because you have to. Because the bills are all due and the babies need shoes (thanks Mr cash for that line) you do it. I know guys who have the skills to work outside, but many can't hack it over the long term. Or they haven't planned ahead enough to keep that money rolling in. The skidder doesn't fire today because I didn't change the fuel filters last week before it got cold kind of stuff. I hear about it all the time. Or a guy takes the word of the parts dealer, waits two weeks for some part from Norway tries to put it in and its the wrong damn part and now you're four weeks without a paycheck and you end up having something machined you could have had done the day after it broke. Stuff like that will sink a guy. Or not having the size or quality or quantity of wood to justify your business. If you've got big timber say 20+ plus that your hand cutting all the time you can and will make money if you keep pushing. Hand cutting pulp and small dbh saw timber and you will push really hard to scrape by. Going mechanized isn't the answer either. You need a **** ton of small wood in front of you and a place to sell it and the means to move it. You don't get paid til the wood gets to where it's going and the banks don't care how business is going. I could ramble on and on about this. I'd be wary of a partnership of guys I didn't know well. I've heard some ugly stories of blown up skidders and guys disappearing when the bills are due.

 

[InfiniteJest]

It's viable for me, but-

No kids, and not going to have any. I'm never home, my camper is more home than my actual house. When I am home it's pretty much making sure everything's ready to go for the next week.

My wife has the grown up job. Good insurance, retirement.

That's what makes it viable for me.


If you do it, do it right. I'm set up as my own llc and carry my own work comp insurance. Some guys do the IC exemption (don't carry work comp), which seems like asking for a limb to come down and break you ****ing neck.

Get something like QuickBooks and keep track of everything. I'm just one little falling contractor, but it seems a lot bigger come tax time.

Good luck, be safe.

 

[Skeans]

Thanks Bob. You're one of the guys that has helped me and I look up to. I think with anything in life when it gets to the point that you can't find any redeeming qualities in what you're doing it's time to move on.

Thumbilly- Logging is hard plain and simple. The life is not for everyone. It's really not for most people. When you're pulling the transmission out of your skidder and it's blowing -20 it sucks. It does. People ask me why not take it to a shop? Well that'll cost a grand just to move it and back and in that time of moving it I'll have er torn apart and put together again and skidding. I can rely on is that after it's done I can say I did that. I beat that and still made it happen and still made money. When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home and yet you push ahead and run one more tank thru the saw because you have to. Because the bills are all due and the babies need shoes (thanks Mr cash for that line) you do it. I know guys who have the skills to work outside, but many can't hack it over the long term. Or they haven't planned ahead enough to keep that money rolling in. The skidder doesn't fire today because I didn't change the fuel filters last week before it got cold kind of stuff. I hear about it all the time. Or a guy takes the word of the parts dealer, waits two weeks for some part from Norway tries to put it in and its the wrong damn part and now you're four weeks without a paycheck and you end up having something machined you could have had done the day after it broke. Stuff like that will sink a guy. Or not having the size or quality or quantity of wood to justify your business. If you've got big timber say 20+ plus that your hand cutting all the time you can and will make money if you keep pushing. Hand cutting pulp and small dbh saw timber and you will push really hard to scrape by. Going mechanized isn't the answer either. You need a **** ton of small wood in front of you and a place to sell it and the means to move it. You don't get paid til the wood gets to where it's going and the banks don't care how business is going. I could ramble on and on about this. I'd be wary of a partnership of guys I didn't know well. I've heard some ugly stories of blown up skidders and guys disappearing when the bills are due.

Bitzer let me throw this is too is also depends on if you're thinning or clear cutting both run on different rates especially out here. To the mechanical part it all depends on if you can work on it as well as get parts for said machine, like a Fabtek Joral new computer is 3k vs a quadco I know was around 20k. Everything on our fabtek I can source myself I don't have to go through Cat or JP Skidmore other then cylinder bodies.

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[ArtB]

When it's 35 and raining and the wind picks up and your wet and cold and tired and your head hurts and you just want to say to hell with it and go home

LOL.

Hey, that just happened last spring! old JD440 out in the woods quit, no compression one cyl - BUT, just being a 'hobby', pulled the head off, greased up the cyl walls, threw a rubber mat over it, and took it home to nice warm garage and did a valve job. 8 mo later still have not put the head back on ! Maybe over Christmas holidays if we have a couple dry days.

 

[bitzer]

Thumbilly I'm not trying to discourage you I'm really not. Like I said in my first post- I walked into the woods when I was 29 with my shirt on my back a family to feed and about 40k in debt. It's ballsy as hell. My dad and most of my uncle's worked in offices. My grandfather's worked in offices. I was on my way to becoming a pharmacist and my dad said to me one night around the fire after a bunch of beer and he said, son I dont see you happy being a bean counter, behind a desk, working a job like that. I knew he was right and I had the feeling for a long time and it took the words out in the open air for me to really let that thing die and to follow the call of the woods. My wife would yell at me as we drove around because I'd be staring at stands of timber. There were times were it got ugly and I got pretty downhearted. I felt stuck on the path I was on and all I could think about was the woods. I knew if I didn't give it a try I would regret it for the rest of my life. There were times when I first got started that I almost lost hope that I could do it. Times that nearly broke my marriage up. Getting 3-4 hours of sleep because of sick kids in the middle of the night and having to drive an hour and a half through the biggest city in the state on icy snow covered roads at 530 in the morning and gas prices at four and a half bucks a gallon and the ground never seeming to want to freeze and nearly getting killed more then once cutting big ugly hard leaning oak timber that I really had no business cutting that green- I'm amazed I survived that first winter. But I learned. Everyday I learned. And I anticipated. The trees, and the skids, and the repairs. Even if I had someone to hold my hand and teach me I don't think I could have learned as much. Learning the hard way is a *****. But you really earn it that way. Alright I gotta quit with the ramble. I could go on and the more beer I drink the more colorful. Other then some enormous unforeseen circumstances I don't see my self ever quitting logging. I love it.