Is the shop lying to me and next steps?

[Westboastfaller]

Should have grabed you saws right there when he did unauthorized work on your saw. Now he will play the victim by the sounds of it or he will jump on it first.
From 700 to 500? Why? Better put, why $700 to begin with.
Go call him out on it. He has crossed the boundry. Don't let him hook you back in.

 

[JP56]

Hi everyone.

I bought a used Stihl MS660 about a year ago from a local repair shop that seemed to have a good reputation. I have only used it about four times overall and was always running it on Stihl brand premix until this last time when I decided to mix my own because every store was out of everything on the shelves because of hurricane Michael and I needed to cut a tree off my house. I had some Mercury outboard 2 cycle oil laying around that I used in the appropriate ratio. I figured 2 stroke is 2 stroke and it wouldn't be a problem. Now this saw was always hard for me to start already but after I mixed the fuel this time I quickly found that the only way I could get it started was with my finger on the throttle and then after it started it wouldn't stay running. I took it in and they are now telling me that it "blew up". They said it needs a new piston and head and that the damage was caused by the oil I used. Said Stihl saws only like Stihl brand oil and I just shoulda known and that different brands of oil are specifically formulated for only that brand of motor. Now this really doesn't make sense to me because they also sell and recommend using "TruFuel" premix as a cheaper alternative to Stihl and I'm pretty sure that it's not made specifically for Stihl chainsaws and will work in pretty much any 2 stroke just fine. They said the cost to repair the saw will be around 750 bucks. I paid $900 for it. Are they deceiving me?

I think it's possible the saw was already on it's last leg and another thing that makes me suspicious is that a couple years prior to this I brought in a vintage all metal Homelite Blue saw to them that I couldn't get to stay running and they told me it needed rebuilt and said parts are near impossible to source so they offered a trade in credit on a new saw. I purchased an MS250 from them at that time. I later bought the used 660 from them after quickly realizing I needed something bigger.

So I need a second opinion. What is the truth? Also, I have decided I am going to make the repairs myself. What do I need to know in order to get this fixed? Where is the cheapest source of OE Stihl parts and how do I get the service manual?

Thank You All!

I am sure that STHIL does not manufacture their own oil, and I am also sure that the don't do anything special to any of their saw parts, to make them only "like" STHIL oil. Pure BS as far as that goes, since one of the well know oil brands probably refines oil that is marketed under many different "brand" names such as STHIL or any other saw manufacturer that carries their 'own brand". As to oil itself, all oil is refined to certain specs, so there are plenty of oils out there that are the equivalent to "STHIL" oil, as well as any other brand. So, 2 cycle oil is 2 cycle oil. All anyone would need to do is search for the specs, or simply "STHIL 2 cycle oil or equivalent" to find one that is. I have owned 2 STHIL products and never used "STHIL" oil and never had/have any problems as far as that goes. They are a MS290 Saw, and a BR380 Blower. Both of them have been a real bear to start on the first cold start since the day I got them home and tried to use them on day 2 of owning them. The dealer I purchased them from started them both out behind the buildings work shop then brought them to me at the cashier counter in the showroom. I took them home (about a mile away) and used them immediately with no problem. The next day and every time since I have had trouble starting them. I found and fixed the BR380 problem, which turned out to be that the ignition module gap was never properly set. Once I found the article after prolonged searches, that addressed that problem, I took it apart, checked the gap, found it incorrect and fixed it. From that day on it always starts on one or 2 pulls. I have not been as lucky in finding/fixing the identical problem with my MA-290 saw! I checked the gap on that module & it was off as well, so I fixed that. The saw starts with a lot less pulls now but it still is hard to start when cold, and always starts on just about a 1/2 pull when stopping & starting while warm.

 

[JP56]

No, you should not be using outboard oil.

A new topend is maybe $350. Labor should only be 1-2 hours. They're ripping you off on the repair.

I know 2 cycle is 2 cycle, but what is the difference between 2 cycle"Outboard Oil" and any other 2 cycle? Kinda new here, so not sure if it was meant seriously or sarcastically.

 

[Jasonrkba]

Get your saws out of that shop asap.

 

[Westboastfaller]

I know 2 cycle is 2 cycle, but what is the difference between 2 cycle"Outboardr Oil" and any other 2 cycle? Kinda new here, so not sure if it was meant seriously or sarcastically.

He is as serious as a heart attack. I believe Castrol makes Stihl oil.
A little tired to add at this time

 

[JP56]

He is as serious as a heart attack. I believe Castrol makes Stihl oil.
A little tired to add at this time

Hi, Thanks. I understand a bit late, 305 AM here but what to do when insomnia kicks in lol. Sometime if ya get the chance tho I would love to know what the difference is. All I know about outboards is the go on boats and all I know about boats is that it is an acronym for Bring On Another Thousand!

 

[JP56]

Get your saws out of that shop asap.

I agree wholeheartedly ! Just as I will not purchase from the dealer I got mine from after reading how they should have walked me through operation of my purchases and not started the out back and out of site when they started them.

 

[JP56]

Ha Ha! Just as I suspected. The oil wasn't the problem. Honestly the consensus seems to be that the oil didn't automatically blow up my motor. I bought a lemon.

http://www.hlsproparts.com/Stihl-066-MS650-MS660-big-bore-overhaul-kit-p/h30660-b-dns.htm

 

[saxman]

My old Homelite says to use 30W, so that is what I use!!!!!!

Back in the early 80’s I worked for the state highway dept in Illinois and our chainsaw fleet was Homelite XL12 and Super XL12. The standard mix was 1 quart of 30W oil in a 5 gallon can of gas. They ran ok, just a bit Smokey at times. You went home at night smelling of chainsaw exhaust


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[Ted Jenkins]

Can't we just bash the dealer for taking advantage of some poor soul or do we have to bash oil suppliers? In more than 50 years of tuning race engines and running saws I have never seen anything like a failure from oil. Like many have stated you could run 30 wt in five gallons of gas and be just fine. The oil does not make any difference as long as the engine is properly set up for the mix. Some oil will perform different than others because all oils burn different. Some hotter some not so hot. If the OP never looked at the plug then how could he know if it was running correctly? If the conditions are questionable I pull the plug to be sure it is on the dark brown side. Yeah it will not win any races, but the motor will survive another day. The motor needs a certain ratio of fuel for any certain condition. Putting more or less oil in a mix changes that. The L and H screws matter where they are turned that us why they are there. The oil aides in heat dissipation when in the right ratio with the fuel. Now if the conditions are right such as a very cold day heavy use and a motor that is already lean then some thing will break. Thanks

 

[JP56]

If he's not lying he's a damn idiot. That being said - I work in a dealership shop and I can tell you that I never ever lie to people about their O P E and I never gouge them on repairs. In fact I go out of my way to try and suss out a person's knowledge and ability so I can hopefully help inform them better. If they don't know and I can learn 'em, let me learn 'em by God.
This shop is the reason there's bad blood; can only run Stihl 2 stroke oil in a Stihl saw, $750 for a top end... To me I read that as, "Take your f***ing money and go somewhere else!"

I bought both my STIHLs from a Direct Factory Authorized Dealer/Repair Shop. They too started the stuff outside in the back of the shop, then brought it inside to the counter, and didn't show or tell me SQUAT about the starting procedure or anything else! Had to take it home and read the manual. Just about wrecked my shoulder trying to start both the blower and the chainsaw from cold starts since the day I got them home. Was so shocked about the article I found regarding the gap setting at the flywheel on the Ignition module being a royal pain to get set exact. But it was spot on and I have never had a cold start problem since I fixed the gap on the blower. Now to move on to checking the gap on the chainsaw.

I used to own and operate an Automotive Glass Shop and I used to get most of my repairs coming in after they had been hacked up by some of the more well known corporate owned and run shops. I always was upfront and honest w my customers, and that became an unbelievable source of invaluable word of mouth advertising. So if telling the truth is considered 'dealer bashing" so be it. A lot of it goes on but not all of it is bashing, it is simply being honest about bad treatment or experiences with certain dealers. Like it or not, a lot of dealers that get bashed, do deserve it, just a fact of life, and anyone who is honest and doesn't gouge, should not be upset by the bashing of those less reputable dealers.

 

[JP56]

I guess sometimes insomnia pays off! I have just finished reading this entire thread and also gone to a lot of great links here and found a world of great info! I do have to correct myself though, I did ONCE use STIHL 2 cycle oil. I picked up a small bottle the day I bought my MS290 & mixed it 50:1 as directed. I have used different brands ever since, but always mixed at 50:1 just like STIHL says to in the owners manual. My only problem the entire time I have owned this saw is the brutally hard first starts since day 2 of owning it. As I mentioned in another thread here about the hard starting, I noticed what seems to be, to be a lot of plug fouling. After going thru this thread I am now suspecting that it may be due to a combination of the 50:1 mix ratio and an improperly tuned carb causing all the plug fouling and the hard cold starts. Would appreciate any words of wisdom about it and if I am on the right track in my thinking. An extra thanks to HarleyT for the wealth of info he supplied in his threads about the serial numbers and part numbers etc.

 

[Colt Marlington]

It takes all of 5 minutes to put a sprocket on.

I would never inconvenience myself by leaving a saw with a shop and having to drive back and forth to get it just to have that done.
That's like dropping your car off at a service station to get a flat fixed and telling them you'll be back next week to pick it up.

That said, and back to the original saw, it's always a risk buying used.
Nobody knows the condition your saw was in when you acquired it.
I didn't know what I know now since joining this site. But NOW, I'd surely insist on pulling the muffler off and seeing the piston and bore before shelling out half of what that big saw cost. It's just too easy to not do it.

As far as the shop that you're dealing with, I agree that it's time to cut and run.
Damage is done. Your trust is lost. You'll always be second guessing your decision to do more business with them. So move on and pay someone else or do it yourself.

Or sell it as is and go buy a brand new saw.
I'd suggest an Echo CS 800P with the 5 year consumer warranty....and a large supply of red armor oil.
And don't do anything to the saw that might void the warranty.

 

[Marshy]

I really wish you would have taken some pics of the damaged cylinder and piston. There is a distinct difference between an oil failure and mechanical failure.

 

[Jeff Lary]

you just agreed to spend an additional $ 500.00 on a used saw that you paid $900.00 for the first time. That is $1,400.00 for an old used saw. I have several saws I would sell for a little less than $1,400.00.... Sorry to sound harsh but you need to think before you speak at that dealer. I will be shocked if when you go back with your "changed mind" to get your saw and they say "we have not started on it yet here ya go" No way, no how... when you get back there I bet they will say" well we have already ordered the parts and yours is already torn down". I hope not but I am afraid your out $500.00 more dollars.

 

[ThackMan]

you just agreed to spend an additional $ 500.00 on a used saw that you paid $900.00 for the first time. That is $1,400.00 for an old used saw. I have several saws I would sell for a little less than $1,400.00.... Sorry to sound harsh but you need to think before you speak at that dealer. I will be shocked if when you go back with your "changed mind" to get your saw and they say "we have not started on it yet here ya go" No way, no how... when you get back there I bet they will say" well we have already ordered the parts and yours is already torn down". I hope not but I am afraid your out $500.00 more dollars.

From the sounds of it when he goes back there will be an additional problem that brings the price back up near $700.


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[banditt007]

Gets saw fixed for $500, uses it one more hour, saw is toast again b/c they did a shoddy repair LOL. Comes in, says this saw is broken again...dealer says well "what oil did you run?" . Replies "Stihl of course!" Dealer "WELL THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE PROBLEM!! SEE-ONCE A STIHL SAW HAS RAN ANY OTHER OIL, YOU CAN'T SWITCH AND GO BACK, IT WILL BLOW UP!!!"

RUN, RUN AWAY NOW!!! For the price you would have been better off buying some chinese ebay/home center saw for $100-150, using that in the meantime while you slowly fix your good saw the right way. Then you would have a backup saw or just sell it for a $50/75 loss. I feel bad for you but at the same time once you went back, and agreed to spend $500 to get it fixed, while getting dissed by the dealer....my sympathy wained.

GOOD LUCK YOU WILL NEED IT!

 

[pioneerguy600]

What many of us experienced mechanics have to remember is these types of scenarios are a bit daunting to the less experienced. Dealerships are there to make money and want to cover all the bases on the first pitch, less experienced patrons feel pressured to make a quick decision to either go ahead with repairs or stop and run. This dealer is full of it and I have experienced much the same line of BS when in shops ordering parts but I watch the OPE owner`s reactions to the dealers mechanic explaining what went wrong. Straight gas and wrong oil is the most used lines in these shops even when I knew it was an air leak that took out the P&C. The mechanic does not want to go into long details of what went wrong even if they knew, the damage is done and they just want to get on with their day, fix it or toss it they really don`t care, much rather sell you a new one.
One dealer in my area I wouldn`t let work on a floor mop, I have never in my life gotten so much BS from a supposedly full service shop. I will buy a sparkplug from them even though they tell me its not the right plug for my particular saw, not the right chain, wrong size file etc. If they can`t get the small stuff right then no way I would let them work on a machine. There are some good and some bad, just have to weed them out. Replacing a P&C is not difficult at all once you have done several but what happens when there is an air leak and its not diagnosed because the OP does not own the gear to do it and another P&C gets ruined? Bad seals, torn boots, poor fitting cylinder to chassis, cracked fuel lines,impulse lines etc are often overlooked by the first time around P&C changers. Best scenario would be for the OP to find a member in his area that would physically help with the repair but failing that he might just be better off letting the dealer do it this time round, just have them set a price first and make them stick to it. Just my 2 cents and worth what ya paid for it.

 

[Sam R]

I used to own and operate an Automotive Glass Shop and I used to get most of my repairs coming in after they had been hacked up by some of the more well known corporate owned and run shops. I always was upfront and honest w my customers, and that became an unbelievable source of invaluable word of mouth advertising. So if telling the truth is considered 'dealer bashing" so be it. A lot of it goes on but not all of it is bashing, it is simply being honest about bad treatment or experiences with certain dealers. Like it or not, a lot of dealers that get bashed, do deserve it, just a fact of life, and anyone who is honest and doesn't gouge, should not be upset by the bashing of those less reputable dealers.

I agree wholeheartedly. I've already had lots of business that came from other shops for stuff that boils down to poor communication from the shop. I've had stuff come in that they called another shop and were quoted over the phone outrageous sums without the shop ever looking at it. Like, what?! One fellow brought me his backpack blower that another shop had written ON THE CASE: "CAN NOT FIX" in permanent marker. Now while he's out blowing his leaves with his unfixable blower it's became some kind of ironic statement.
Reputation is valuable as gold I'm finding and I try and go out of my way to earn people's business by being honest with them, doing good work and coming in at or below my quotes. And if it's over I'll explain to them exactly why. And if it's a lot over I'll call them and say well this and this and this, do you want to continue? And I tell them I go over it and through it, I follow the Stihl engine check form - I look for all problems, come up with a comprehensive quote and say what do you think about that?
Try and end the deal with a handshake, tell them thanks for your business, tell your friends.

To OP: I think that shop sounds pretty shady. Knock $200 off a $700 quote? That's like a 30% discount just because? Christmas? Sounds like they quoted you high to see if you'd blink at it and now that you're not so sure they're coming down. I don't know off the top of my head what a 660 top end is but even w/ couple hours labor it's looking like you'll not come anywhere near $700.

 

[Ax-man]

Wow, heck of a thread going on here.

I am not going to get into the oil debate only to say at least the saw had some oil in the mix . The saw sounds like it had other issues going on before it failed which probably caused it's demise.

I am not siding with this so called renegade shop but I can see how they came to the conclusion that the outboard oil mix blew the saw up. That would be my first reaction if someone brought me a saw and told me they had run 2 cycle boat motor oil in the mix. Your average person doesn't know the difference between a high end mix verses the low end mix . A chainsaw is just another power tool for most people that will get a life of abuse and any old 2 cycle oil will make it run till it dies a slow death. Right. I think everyone here will agree this isn't the case. At least the saw wasn't straight gassed which happens more often than it should.