leaving rope in tree

[arboralliance]

cont'

It has been mentioned above that rope is designed to be or can be left on mountains for months or years at a time...

Arb' rope is possibly less susceptible to U.V. light as the sheath is thicker however I would avoid leaving the rope in the tree for a whole host of reasons...

Arb' rope does not have the same water repellent or water resistant treatments as some specifically designed mountaineering ropes therefore Arb’ rope isn’t designed to be left out for long periods as the strength of the rope can be affected by dirt impregnation via leaving the rope out and once again U.V. light ...(it can also acquire fungal infections from being left moist just as “un treated” mountaineering ropes can, once again, specific designed and moisture retardant treated mountaineering ropes are better able to accommodate constant moisture, Arb’ ropes are not, a fungal infection will destroy the structural integrity of rope like nothing else on the planet this is caused by the chemical nature of certain fungi being alcohol initiative (I am no chemist) and in turn changing the chemical structure of the rope…or chemically “cold” melting the rope…)

Certain Mountaineering ropes that are used to set fixed guide lines, ascent lines or traverse and Tyrolienne lines have a sheath treated to be more U.V. resistant than others (this is why some Mountaineering rope can be so much more expensive than others). These ropes when used are invariably not constantly weighted like Arb’ ropes are so their structural integrity would be harder to ascertain as they realistically are left in place as a secondary system to a primary rope. ARB' ROPE DOES NOT HAVE ANY SUCH RATING OR ADDITIONAL PROTECTION OR TREATMENT...

Please do not bundle the UIAA ratings of mountaineering rope in with that of Arb' rope!! Mountaineering ropes are by their purpose design and manufacture considerably different to Arb’ ropes...

I have a brand new 50 m UIAA rated mountaineering rope on my lap as I write and the sheath is so thin I cannot begin to guess at or measure its thickness (I have an engineering background versant in measuring extremely small distances) I would say it is paper thin and I know from experience that it heats up very quickly and does not have the heat dissipating qualities of Arb rope let alone the integrity and design engineering to accommodate our filthy work environment...

I have been instructing climbing from Arb’ to Mountaineering on and off for over twenty years now having been a mad keen climber as a kid. Climbing both trees and rock was (and still is to some degree) my only escape from a very unforgiving childhood... I have worked with a number of Professional Mountaineers, Arborists and Vertical Access technicians who have devoted there entire life’s work to researching Arb’ and Mountaineering rope and equipment… Therefore I have spent many hours discussing these and many other issues pertaining to the world of climbing with rope… (One of these Mountaineers showed me how self rescue and general abseiling can be done on 2mm kernmantle!)

In my early twenties I was dropped off a cliff because the mountaineering rope got too hot to handle...

I have climbed for years on mountaineering ropes IN TREES…WHY, because I was consistently climbing all day, up and down 250 - 300++ foot E. regnans and needed to carry all my gear through cold/temperate rain forest to do so, therefore weight was a serious fatigue and therefore safety issue, carrying 400++ foot of rope and all my gear including axe, chainsaw, climbers, harness, pruning saw, secateur’s, self rescue equip’, etc, etc the only reasonable option was using double line descent on 7mm static mountaineering rope with a huge alloy "5 hole - whale tail" to take the heat out of the system and that was even going real slow on the descent... I could come out of the same or similar trees on Arb’ rope much faster only on a friction hitch and only be concerned with burning through the friction hitch (don’t ask)…

I left a mountaineering line in a tree stump once for a few weeks as it was the bottom 100++ foot stump of a tree I was removing for friends at mates rates so wanted to make it as safe and easy as I could to resume the work in my spare time; the line was severely sun damaged after approximately 3 weeks (the bright shiny purple and red fleck sheath had faded dramatically in the three weeks and the rope had gone from beautifully supple to almost brittle and quite rigid. The rope was only a month or two old and had been used less than 5 times, it was a well recognized and expensive Mountaineering rope) and had to be discarded as it was obviously severely sun affected... (Keeping in mind there is a known hole in the ozone layer over Victoria in the southern part of eastern Australia; all my international friends notice the sun burning them as soon as it peeps out from behind the clouds down in Victoria… When they do the smog alerts on the news down there they also do a U.V. rating for the day! We have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world!)...

Mountaineering rope can and invariably is completely covered in snow and or ice for all or most of its time on the mountain further filtering or completely stopping U.V. light damage (among a multitude of other reasons ropes can be and are relatively “protected” on Mountains)...

IMHO the claims that have been made in this thread seem bold…

If one filament of the rope is cut one could make the bold claim “no, it will be fine, you can have X percent of the line damaged and it is still rated safe” which is fair enough…

Similarly with U.V. effect…

HOWEVER, consider this, a 50m rope has one filament cut at 20m another at 23m another at 27m another at 30m and yet another at 34m that’s a fair distance apart, all small “nicks” in the rope we would all concur HOWEVER if those nicks all transpired to be on the same turn of thread or made up a strand you have a rope that needs to be retired THAT ALONG WITH THE AGE OF THE ROPE WHICH HAS NOT BEEN ADRESSED HERE OR EVEN THE HISTORY OF THE ROPE…

The same applies if the rope is left out for three days in the sun or even just outside for three days who is to say it is not going to get a weak spot in it from any or all of the elements besides the rot of chemical impregnation from the tree or fungi, how old is the rope, how many times has the rope been stressed before, what’s the history of the rope what was the rope designed to do or withstand or be rated for or against?

Go stick a piece (any piece) of rope in the oven for three days (set oven on a direct sunlight mid summer heat setting) then wet it right down with water and place it in a bag for three days with some mulch and or a few moist green branches then post here what it looks and smells like and it wont have even been exposed to the damaging effects of U.V. light in that time but I can guarantee you wont want to climb on it let alone touch it…

IMHO it is never one single doing that causes failure in a system it is a multitude of insignificant not doings that work together to create a perceived accident and system failure…

PLEASE CONSIDER?

PEACE…

 

[moss]

Great post Jarrah, thanks for putting the effort in. I hope this puts to rest any ideas about leaving climbing ropes in trees for extended periods of time. As others have mentioned, using a tag line is so easy, there's no point in leaving the rope up. The small downside is... I recently had a new tagline (nylon black line) break as I was pulling my rope up, after being in a tree for only a month. The tree is a mature Honey Locust with thin canopy leaf density Appears to be UV damage, the tagline was brittle, no indication of animal chewing.

I use a mountaineering static rope for SRT tree entry with mechanical ascenders and rappel with a Grigri. I assume you have no objection to that use in trees.
-moss

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Jarrah,

Thanks for putting the time into making a long reply. your varied experiences in many rope disciplines are valuable. I'd like to pick your brain and help me understand some things a little better.

The only non-arbo rope that I have ever used for climbing trees is New England KMIII 3/8" and 7/16" dia. static line. In almost all climbs now I use the 7/16" for an access line. If I'm going straight back down the rope I'll use some piece of descent gear. I've got many tools but usually keep an I'd in my kit bag. I quit using figure eights fifteen years ago. Occasionally I'll use a Munter on an HMS biner.

Off and on for several years I've tried to find a hitch that will work for ascent and descent on KMIII. Some work reasonably well but nothing is as smooth as a DdRT setup. You've expressed reservations about using friction hitches on non-arbo rope because of the heat buildup that could damage the sheath of the rope. I'm puzzled how any more heat would build up in the rope using a hitch or using a descending too. In any climb that I've done the hitch will get warm on an SRT descent if I go too fast. Easy enough to slow down. In my observation it's the hitch that is taking the wear and tear not the rope. Many people, mistakenly, think that a Munter will harm a rope because of the rope on rope. This isn't the case since the rope is moving. The potential for damage comes when the climber, and the rope, stop. There is a possiblity of the builtup heat scorching the rope. The same idea fits for using friction hitches as far as I can see.

Please don't take this as a challenge to start a debate. I'm always trying to understand how to use rope systems better. There is so much to learn from other working rope disciplines.

Friends of mine in Germany were doing a job, in the rain, one day when they noticed a fellow standing off to the side. when they got down to the ground and the jobsite was stabilized the fellow walked up to them to chat. He was very impressed with how they were using friction hitches. The fellow introduced himself...Mr., or should I say, Herr Bachmann...yes 'that' Bachmann! They all had a good talk and are going to get together some more friction hitch research. Bachmann said that arbos have a better understanding of rope on rope friction than any other rope discipline. Our DdRT climbing system has been a repository of all of the knowledge that isn't used in the other rope disciplines where tools have become standard fare because they work better...for the most part [Let's not get sidetracked into a debate about this for now !]

To finish up, and get back on topic, I would probably not leave a rope in a tree in a rodent area for longer than a couple of days. Too easy to set a throwline. Climbing on wet ropes is more of a concern to me than critter or UV damage. Also, I use some sort of false crotch so I'm concerned about damage or loss of my Rope Guide or FC.

 

[arboralliance]

Again, please consider...

Great post Jarrah, thanks for putting the effort in. I hope this puts to rest any ideas about leaving climbing ropes in trees for extended periods of time. As others have mentioned, using a tag line is so easy, there's no point in leaving the rope up. The small downside is... I recently had a new tagline (nylon black line) break as I was pulling my rope up, after being in a tree for only a month. The tree is a mature Honey Locust with thin canopy leaf density Appears to be UV damage, the tagline was brittle, no indication of animal chewing.

I use a mountaineering static rope for SRT tree entry with mechanical ascenders and rappel with a Grigri. I assume you have no objection to that use in trees.
-moss

Thank you moss, I hold my breath on this one vainly hoping the big boys will comment...

I used a similar system extensively moss, (naturally laughed at here by all the big names in the industry) the gri-gri is a smart piece of hardware (when not set front to back as I have seen done on the rock) a shame it cannot release smoothly at all angles out from the point of attachment or it would be the perfect belay/friction device for tree work...

It still amazes me we use a friction hitch in our systems to rappel or abseil or descend on as it theoretically is a system, by its nature/design destined to fail in descend mode...That being why the blakes created with/on 1/2" Arb' rope, is, as I see it, the most suitable friction hitch to use currently...

moss, I have been meaning to p.m. you for a few reasons...

One of which is my concern for your use of mechanical ascenders without back up fall arrest on SRT or the like...

As you know, mechanical ascenders have a non fixed, non locking cam that "bites" on the rope and if for any reason this was to dislodge and the rope to come free from the ascender (very easily happening just as is the method for removing the ascender from the rope) what is stopping you from becoming inverted (if you have a lower fall arrest device within your system) or falling to ground? I know some or most ascenders can allow for a 'biner to be passed through behind the cammed lobe to prevent opening (and that 'biner then potentially be used to "assist" lift of the ascender) but still, what would it take to wrap in a prussic above the ascent device/s system for back up?

I know for sure what it costs...

I would climb or ascend on a prussic or mechanical ascent device of one type or another set above a gri-gri and pull up the tail through the gri-gri as I stood up so the gri-gri was always in the system as my primary attachment to the rope and then i could aslo use it (gri-gri) imediately to move around the canopy and then comfortably and relatively safely descend on the gri-gri without having to transfer over to another system... As mentioned loosely above this could not accommodate any significant limb walks for a host of reasons and i mainly used it for long accents on taller trees where minimal limb walking was required...

(There are a few alternatives to this gri-gri method which would make it very easy to foot lock into the tree however slow as it incorporates a split reduction system...)

Besdies all that moss I am very keen to discuss recreational climbing with you and its anomolies and progression in the States as I formulate a trainning sylybus here inline with my projections of a soon to be blossoming sporting activity...

(Have I become a nemesis of the rope access realm here?)

 

[arboralliance]

Again...

Tom, greetings and salutations...

It is nearly 3:30 a.m. and I have Dendro's Electra at ransom and have not been duely responding to his creators jibe as to ongoing scripting and Bris' 2011 is steaming upon us!! Ha!

Will respond after shut eye...

Tom, a huge response was formulated in the last couple of hours to your post but I must retire, proof and post in daylight...

Guy, Electra is on the mission but don't quote me (or Yoda for that matter) on that...! Ha!

 

[moss]

moss, I have been meaning to p.m. you for a few reasons...

One of which is my concern for your use of mechanical ascenders without back up fall arrest on SRT or the like...

As you know, mechanical ascenders have a non fixed, non locking cam that "bites" on the rope and if for any reason this was to dislodge and the rope to come free from the ascender (very easily happening just as is the method for removing the ascender from the rope) what is stopping you from becoming inverted (if you have a lower fall arrest device within your system) or falling to ground? I know some or most ascenders can allow for a 'biner to be passed through behind the cammed lobe to prevent opening (and that 'biner then potentially be used to "assist" lift of the ascender) but still, what would it take to wrap in a prussic above the ascent device/s system for back up?

You're not the first who has commented on this. I appreciate your concern. I'll hijack this thread only briefly. In the photo I think you can see my SRT ascending setup. Two seperate Petzl ascenders (right and left). The left ascender has my footloops attached. Both ascenders are attached to the same ring on my saddle bridge, above my waist. Should either ascender fail the other will hold me reasonably upright (short of doing chest attachment). The cord is 5mm New England Ropes Tech Cord (technora 5000 lb. tensile) tied in a loop joined w/ double fisherman's and girth hitched on both ends. I've sculpted epoxy filler (PC-7) onto the attachment point where the cord attaches to the ascender creating a non-structural (but very strong) round and super smooth (sanded very fine) cross section so the ascender won't wear or cut the cord. It's held up very well, showing no degradation and the cord is as happy as cord can be. I think I've covered everything that people have commented on safety-wise.

An additional prussik over the top ascender would amount to a 2nd back-up, do you think this is needed? I have nothing against but don't want to add anything that's not actually useful.

Just a note, whenever I get into a situation where I'm going off the vertical plane SRT I add a biner at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in. I'm a newbie SRT climber. In about 10 climbs that I've made I'm noticing that attention paid to each ascender as I push it up and transfer weight is probably my best insurance. For instance I always make sure the cam is engaged on the rope before transferring weight. Even if the spring broke I could thumb the cam into position as I load the rope. I've learned this because I've accidentally thumbed the cam the other way so that it won't grab the rope. This can happen even if the cam is still locked in I've changed my hand position on the ascender so that my thumb is not contacting the cam "thumb" when I push the ascender up. Paying attention to the little things makes all the difference.

 

[arboralliance]

Thank you again...

(All temperature measurements are in Celsius …)

(These are my thoughts only unless otherwise stated, I am not giving advice in any of my previous or future posts just stating opinions based on careful thought and experience/s…)

G’day Tom. As you would know the nature of the/a friction hitch encapsulates heat (this is how it arrests descent) which can be seen in the glazing sometimes found on the internal diameter/wall of the hitch wrap assembly and also in the heat felt in ones hand around the friction hitch when descending… (Also another reason to not climb on wet rope with friction hitches...They lose some capacity to act as a friction device due to the heat transference effect of the water.)

This, in the instance of rated sheath Arb’ rope is not as great an issue as the Arb' rope sheath has the density/thickness and internal or core structure (being non woven) and weave configuration (12 or 16 strand) to dissipate the heat as the hitch rests on the line whence stopped descending motion/movement despite whether extended or short descents of fast or slow speed...

(I will always release my hitch immediately upon alighting on the ground to prevent points of heat fatigue culminating on/in the rope as one would or should with a mechanical device also.)

As I see it, IMHO more heat is generated in mountaineering rope for a number of reasons;

1. mountaineering rope being of thinner multiple layers (and multiple “multiple” layers in the classic 48 strand “kern” or sheaths woven construction), the design of mountaineering rope better traps heat (as can be also observed using the analogy of multi layering recommended in clothing layering for warmth retention) also invariably the combination of substances to make the mountaineering rope more resistant to the elements makes it more susceptible to generating heat under friction.

(if the common however thin 48 strand “polyester” sheath the melting point is at *260 deg’ then potentially the inner core has already begun to melt having a melting temp’ of *210 deg’ the heat trapped inside the hitch loops/wraps can only transfer into the centre of the hitch before radiating out again surely also considering, and you recently pointed this out Tom the fact that correct rappel technique in hitch usage is to have one hand over the hitch and or slightly above, further insulating the heat in the friction hitch.)

2. if you look at how nylon is made and its progression from a viscose entity to a seemingly solid object will clearly (or should) inform you of the fallacy that is the apparent solid substance of nylon (or any rope material for that mater, we only use rope as it is light and flexible it is however not resistant to heat considering the melt point temps…) and therefore what little it takes to return to a viscose state.

3rdly Once again I refer to the super thin sheath on mountaineering rope covering the structurally integral inner core i.e. what might glaze either slightly or even severely an Arb’ rope sheath would clearly and easily melt and therefore strip the sheath off of mountaineering rope.

(Tom I wont discus the Munter here as it is a sliding arrest system through the ropes own length on a ‘biner, the biner able to more efficiently dissipate heat due to its mass and melt point temp of (Aluminium) being 1600 degrees+ C’, where as the melt point of rope is *(Nylon) 210 degrees which will be far more quickly reached when mated to, in sliding friction, a substance of similar texture and melt point. HOWEVER Tom, two or more locking gate biners should be used when using the Munter as I am sure you are aware...* http://www.justsail.com/rmaterial.htm)

Tom, what I see as critical is;

A. The melt point temperature.

-YET ALSO –

B. The capacity, through wall/thread/weave configuration and thickness or mass, for this temperature to be dissipated…


The test as I see it is to take varying prussic loops and test them close to failure in controlled situations with back up fall arrest … What you may notice is that the 1/2” Arb’ rope does not glaze nearly as readily as the 7 – 8 or 9mm mountaineering cordage used for prussic line/loops and or the larger 3/8” – 7/16” mountaineering lines with there thin sheath/s… (Let’s not get into the heat resistant cordage here as it has its own draw backs in many regards…)

(AN EXTRACT IN REGARD TO BLOG POSTINGS RELATING TO DAN OSMANS DEATH TAKEN FROM THE LINK BELOW (An extreme case none the less)):

http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/41237

“Subject: My Dan Osman Rope Failure Analysis
From: Chris Harmston <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:09:11 -0600
I think it is time I spoke up publicly. I have reviewed Dano's rope in
some detail. My findings and theory support those published by Kevin
Worrall in Climbing (No 183, March 1999, Pg 90).
This statement is mine personally and NOT that of Black Diamond Equipment!
This is obvious as you read below.
Irrelevant Background:
I am a Materials Engineer with BS degrees in Physics and Materials
Engineering and a ME in Materials Engineering (I nearly finished a PhD but
bailed once I learned I did not enjoy being a scientist any longer). I
know lots about atomic layer semiconductor crystal growth. I have been
the Quality Assurance Manager for Black Diamond Equipment for 6 years. My
primary responsibility is the testing and analysis of climbing equipment,

~ /// ~ (He reports on in the cut body of the report about his own (the authors) climbing prowess, impressive as it may be but below is the crux)

What is to be learned from this accident? NEVER LET NYLON SLIDE AGAINST
NYLON! You should already know this.
I also know that Dano's rigging setup was reviewed by more than a couple
of technically competent people. I also know that he tested it multiple
times. I personally do not think that what Dan was doing (when done
properly as he had done on earlier jumps) was any more dangerous than
modern ice climbers doing hard thin ice routes (like in Maple Canyon and
elsewhere), in fact his setup was most likely safer in my personal
opinion. Dan's death was a tragedy and an accident.
Again, this summary is mine personally and not that of Black Diamond.
Chris Harmston ([email protected]).
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.”


Another point I would like to make if I may is the fact that rope can weaken by up to 15% or more when wet (with clean cold water).

Also, caming ascent devices are not rated to arrest fall of any distance or type i.e. the caming lobe by its nature will likely cut (melt etc) the sheath/rope if a fall of any distance is taken by/on it…

I must say Tom I am very impressed with your story as I have always admired and preferred the Bachmann for a number of reasons and would see it as being a great alternative or addition to moss' already efficient system/s...

Moss, my comments and concern were formulated after literally hours of studying your photos on the web over the last few months (lovely drawings/paintings by the way) and I would reiterate firstly;

as you may know, every, all and any bend in rope reduces the strength of the rope by a significant percentage, a 90 degree bend in theory reduces the strength of the rope by half, please re-assess your system and surmise the real strength within its complexity based on the bend ratios present... (Read the manufacturers recommendations on ascender device usage moss, please...)

Moss, at no stage within your ascent system are you in a closed loop with the rope by the very nature of the ascent devices being unable to lock or clasp around the rope... (Or your not wanting to lock them in place...Why don't you have that "going off the vertical plane" biner in place at all times?)

The ascent devices were not designed or intended to be a sole attachment device so another looped or locked device should be in place...

You are I am sure an astute and aware climber however all eyes are on you and you or others may one day in one moment not be as alert and therefore a resulting incident could occur, would you concur?

Moss I respect yours and Toms work greatly and honor our age difference but I see clearly through my own experiences how careful we need to be under watchful eye's...

I would not leave a rope in a tree unless I was there with it, if I absolutely had to for any reason I would rigorously inspect it before climbing on it again…

Uneven wear on rope surely must be the fore most cause of rope failure in normal working conditions and this I would surmise is due to inconsistent use and maintenance of the rope allowing for “weak spots” to develop along the length…

Surely leaving a rope out in a tree, particularly unattended, would only increase the already high risk involved in our profession/s...

I could go on, I apologize if I have offended anyone and for high jacking this thread…

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I remember following chatter about DAn Osman on RC.com for a while. Then, following along after his death too. His use of rope on rope friction was so far on the extreme end to almost not be considered.

Since there are cords available for hitches that are very durable and have high melting points I've used them. My favorite is HRC but I've used Beeline and Technora, the burgundy stuff from Sherrill, too. My ropes never glaze but the cords do and get retired. There is a good thread on ******** about retiring hitch cords and some observational guidelines that climbers have developed.

I think that I'm one of the few climbers who is even messing around with SRT in trees using hitches. In a way, operating in a realm that is populated with as many people as Dan O was. Of course, I'm not operating in the same extreme mode. When I descend, especially on SRT, I do it very slow and gentle. I'll save my bail out descents for the time that I might run into bees. When I have tested knots for grip/release on a faster descent I feel the heat of the hitch and rope with my cheek to get a sense of how hot they get. I'll stop, do a temp check then slide down a couple of inches to recheck the rope. In both cases I have never sensed a 'heat sink' effect.

Given the radius of the biner compared to the cord I have no problem with the efficiency loss. After reading about pull tests of many knots in many cords the fail point is not at the attachment unless it is a 'knife edge' radius relative to the cord.

Good to have this discussion.

 

[treeseer]

Jarrah tho I have little interest in gear chat now I know why I checked this thread:

1. to nag you further on Electra--you have written a whole book here!

2. To make me think further about my use of mtneeriing rope on most trees. I knew abrasion was an issue, now I know some other issues. Thanks

 

[moss]

Ok, all good points, I could be convinced to put a small, rated screwlink at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in

I'll try putting a prusik above my top ascender, see how it works out. If doesn't get in the way then I have a safer system. I'm still confused though, doesn't two separate ascenders attached above the waist equal a backed up system? I've asked this before and never got a clear answer. Is the answer that at the moment I'm moving an ascender up the other ascender is not backed up?

For the cord ascender attachment and the girth hitch here's my unscientific capacity estimate. If the cord is 5000 lb. tensile and I double it with a closed loop I've more or less doubled the capacity of the cord. Subtract strength loss due to double fisherman's, subtract strength loss due to girth hitch on each end, my guess is that I'm still over or at 6500 lb. tensile for the attachment. I weigh 130 lb. dripping wet so I'm well within the 10:1 safety factor for life support gear.
-moss

 

[arboralliance]

Consider...

Ok, all good points, I could be convinced to put a small, rated screwlink at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in

I'll try putting a prusik above my top ascender, see how it works out. If doesn't get in the way then I have a safer system. I'm still confused though, doesn't two separate ascenders attached above the waist equal a backed up system? I've asked this before and never got a clear answer. Is the answer that at the moment I'm moving an ascender up the other ascender is not backed up?

For the cord ascender attachment and the girth hitch here's my unscientific capacity estimate. If the cord is 5000 lb. tensile and I double it with a closed loop I've more or less doubled the capacity of the cord. Subtract strength loss due to double fisherman's, subtract strength loss due to girth hitch on each end, my guess is that I'm still over or at 6500 lb. tensile for the attachment. I weigh 130 lb. dripping wet so I'm well within the 10:1 safety factor for life support gear.
-moss

both fall factor and the TOTAL bends in each attachment end...

The ascent device is not locked off or does not entirely encapsulate the rope AND is by its nature a cutting/caming device once again fall arrest and fall factor rates need to be acounted for and carefully considered...:deadhorse:

Thank you moss, i am impressed with your openess and willingness to hear me out... A great example you set in all your undertakings may we all follow your lead...

Guy, electra is coming, she became inverted in a climb off and had to self rescue, she is a bit shaken up but will be with us shortly...She is greatful for your concern and for the flowers Dendro sent however asked that Codit not send any more poetry...:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[B-Edwards]

Guess you guys havent heard of the Siberian rope chewing rodent. It only comes out at night in search of synthetic ropes to chew. Some of these rodents have developed wings so as to keep thier search for ropes aloft. In a remote site in Siberia these rodents have attacked aborists on more than 1 occasion while seeking the wonderful synthetic rope. It is also recomended to take your rope out of the tree at night so as not to cause the spread of these rodents to other parts of the world. Hopes this helps.

 

[Fireaxman]

Guess you guys havent heard of the Siberian rope chewing rodent. ....

It is not necessary to invent a new rodent to find a creature that chews on ropes. I am telling you, the common Grey Squirrel, Sciurus caroliniensis, is perfectly capable. OK, I do not have a picture of a certified squirrel chewed rope. But I can offer this.

Arborists' ropes are commonly made of synthetic polyester, a plastic. The steps on this ladder are plastic, not much different than the material ropes are made of. Grey squirrels dont eat plastic? Maybe not, but they certainly gave the steps on this ladder a hard time for some reason. Exercising their jaws, sharpening their teeth, or collecting material for their nest maybe. This ladder is kept in a carport in an area with a high population of common grey squirrels. Grey squirrels did this, I saw them chewing on it.

I would advise against leaving your ropes hanging overnight in a tree in this neighborhood.

 

[geofore]

leaving ropes out

The small critters go for salt, even a rake or shovel aren't safe, they chew the handles if you get sweat on it. A little bit of salt on it and they'll chew it.

 

[moss]

The small critters go for salt, even a rake or shovel aren't safe, they chew the handles if you get sweat on it. A little bit of salt on it and they'll chew it.

Good point! Never thought to make the connection. Porcupines are famous for eating wooden tool handles. Herbivores in general are always looking for sources of minerals and salts not available in their regular diet. That's why deer antlers on the forest floor don't last too long, voles, mice, chipmunks and squirrels will knaw them down to nothing to get valuable calcium and other minerals. Every time you handle your rope you're adding delicious salts and minerals into the strands.
-moss

 

[Yeahman]

"Life" line

what's a couple of minutes everyday?

 

[Sunrise Guy]

No disrespect meant, honestly, but this is one of the goofiest posts I've ever read in here. I would never leave a rope in a tree, overnight or for longer than I'm actively using it. I have string lines in all of the trees on my property that enable me to pull my ropes up anytime I wish to climb. If you honestly can't spare the two minutes it takes to pull your lines up, brother, your life needs serious reorganizing! I don't care if there are no baddies out in your neck of the woods that may nibble on your line. Any number of things might happen while you're not watching your line, or at least active nearby. Kids do strange things, some animals might do the same. Some freaky occurrence might compromise the safety of your line. Remember, it's your life line. Is your life so unimportant to you that you won't take a stupidly simple measure to safeguard it by simply taking down your line when you're done climbing? Good luck, man.

 

[rmihalek]

I see what you mean Sunrise Guy; it's not just a rope, it's a life line.

I wanted to ask the question to stimulate some discussion and also to learn something new. As I said in the original post, I use tag lines and don't leave my rope in the tree, but was soliciting opinions from others more experienced in this matter.

What about Moss' idea of tying the rope into a loop and then running the whole loop through your hands prior to a climb? Of course, this would only work for DdRT or DRT, but it sounds like a safe way to proceed, especially if there was a tricky/difficult placement of a cambium saver.

 

[Chucky]

All the posts advising against leaving a rope in a tree certainly seem to have merit, but I've got a True Blue line I've had in a tree out back going on three years continuously, and I still climb on it. Squirrels run all over the tree.

Jerry Beranak had left a rope in a Redwood tree and several years later retrieved it, tested its tensile strength, only to find it maintained a surprisingly large percentage of its integrity.

It seems inert substances like plastic, polyester, nylon, and polypropylene are amazingly resistant to both biotic and abiotic agents of degradation, which is why at the store I bag with paper, not plastic.

Still, I wouldn't recommend anyone to leave a rope in a tree for more than a few days, because after all spending a few minutes repositioning your line is hardly worth imperiling your life.

 

[arboralliance]

I see what you mean Sunrise Guy; it's not just a rope, it's a life line.

I wanted to ask the question to stimulate some discussion and also to learn something new. As I said in the original post, I use tag lines and don't leave my rope in the tree, but was soliciting opinions from others more experienced in this matter.

What about Moss' idea of tying the rope into a loop and then running the whole loop through your hands prior to a climb? Of course, this would only work for DdRT or DRT, but it sounds like a safe way to proceed, especially if there was a tricky/difficult placement of a cambium saver.

All the posts advising against leaving a rope in a tree certainly seem to have merit, but I've got a True Blue line I've had in a tree out back going on three years continuously, and I still climb on it. Squirrels run all over the tree.

Jerry Beranak had left a rope in a Redwood tree and several years later retrieved it, tested its tensile strength, only to find it maintained a surprisingly large percentage of its integrity.

It seems inert substances like plastic, polyester, nylon, and polypropylene are amazingly resistant to both biotic and abiotic agents of degradation, which is why at the store I bag with paper, not plastic.

Still, I wouldn't recommend anyone to leave a rope in a tree for more than a few days, because after all spending a few minutes repositioning your line is hardly worth imperiling your life.

Yep, a 60, 90 or 200 foot rope sitting in a tree and the sun shines on one spot for 6-8 hrs a day every day, the "spot" is only 3" long or less; further down a fungal infection/bloom has occurred inside the ropes fibers causing a chemical reaction and yet again on another tiny section of rope a mammal has been urinating every day slowly dissolving the "plastic rope (a far cry from the same construction of a plastic bag); none of these "elements" could you "discover" in a quick (yes the "inspections" we do are "quick") inspection of the rope....

(How does rope then degrade in a tree Chucky and if it does, which it does, how then is this process exempt from aceleration under prime conditions...)

Chucky, you seem to have contradicted yourself and made claims of sincere grandiosity with no factual evidence or reference to written data to back them up, what is the go with this?

How did Jerry "test" his rope? What section of his rope did he test? Where was the rope placed within the structure of the trees extremities? All these questions apply to your rope also placed in a tree?

Why not bag with hesian at the store and re-use it every time you go to the store instead of perpetuating the wanton slaying of trees to create your one use "paper" bag...