Lighter/thinner or heavier/thicker?

[EngineerDude]

Ash tree in front of house has to come down, but no way to fell it safely from the ground. So, I've made decision to invest in what I need to climb it and drop it from the top, a piece at a time.

Planning to use doubled rope technique with split tail and micro-pulley. Thanks to "The Tree Climber's Companion", I've figured this out on a conceptual level, and am confident I can make this work. Mechanical engineering background has been a help.

The process of researching this has reawakened a long-standing desire to climb for recreational purposes. (Some old growth forest about 20 miles from here interests me.)

Now I'm trying to refine some specifics. The immediate question involves rope. I'm looking at Velocity and ArborMaster. Given what I've described above as the immediate need combined with the longer term desire to use this equipment recreationally, I'm seeking advice on whether lighter is better, or if the thicker ArborMaster is the better choice. Or other?

(Also would be interested in recommendations on saddles. I'm leaning toward optimizing on maneuverability and light weight, sacrificing as needed on robustness/length of service.)

 

[EngineerDude]

Have read pretty much everything on vendors' sites I've found. Have taken this as far as going to all the well-known rope mfr's sites and pretty comprehensively researching rope characteristics.

Unofrtunately, while the mfrs and vendors provide a lot of good data, their descriptions lack the experience factor. For example, how does it feel? How does it hold up? How much of a pain in the neck is it to drag a couple of extra pounds of rope around? Etc. It's this kind of input that I'm seeking.

 

[Dadatwins]

It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?
Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun.

P.S. welcome to site

 

[EngineerDude]

Dada and Dan, you underestimate me. You both are absolutely correct that I lack experience climbing. But what I lack in experience I'll more than make up for with preparation, based on EXTENSIVE research into the entire process (I have well over 100 hours invested in this to date (including the reference I mentioned and others, the websites of all the major manufacturers and vendors, and significant time observing and interacting with local crews, most of which frankly do an abysmal job of respecting safety considerations). Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk.

Bottom line is that I won't be going into this or any other tree until I'm qualified to do so, but I WILL be going into this tree and many more in the future.

I obviously can't stop you from your curious, annoying, elitist desire to look down your nose at me because I lack experience, but I will ask that you please don't post any more replies that might encourage others to also close their minds and so not reply with helpful information.

 

[Newfie]

C'mon guys, he's an engineer! He can do anything that a bunch of tree climbing misanthropes can do.

I guess it sucks when an elitist has the microscope turned around on himself.

"E Dude", what about training, or are you far too smart to require hands on?

 

[Trinity Honoria]

<ahem> may i make a suggestion? that you seek out the recreation-climbers? and learn to climb in that arena, then perhaps tackle your tree in the yard?

considering what i have learned from the folks on this list-- i have never perceived them as elitists, even when i have not responded in the way they encouraged...

i applaud your plan, your ingenuity, but getting some hands on experience prior to also using gas powered machinery while hanging from a rope, high about the ground, would seem sound advice to me...

and who am i??? a simple woman, who owns a house, and has trees growing on the property. nothing more... nothing less...

 

[2Coilinveins]

Relax EngineerDude, these people aren't trying to be mean, they're trying to keep your a$$ out of the hospital or the morgue.

 

[trimmmed]

C'mon, lets not knock engineers as a profession. Where'd we be without Charlie? He is singlehandedly taking on OPEC with his licorice fuel program

Once upon a time there was an engineer
Choo Choo Charlie was his name, we hear.
He had an engine and he sure had fun
He used Good & Plenty candy to make his train run.
Charlie says "Love my Good & Plenty!"
Charlie says "Really rings my bell!"
Charlie says "Love my Good & Plenty!"
Don't know any other candy that I love so well!

 

[Trinity Honoria]

Relax EngineerDude, these people aren't trying to be mean, they're trying to keep your a$$ out of the hospital or the morgue.

thank you for being politically correct towards my gender...

the pronouns are h*ll to get politically correct, tho... don't you think???

 

[EngineerDude]

Newfie, trust me, I'm not elitist about being an engineer or anything else. By choice of screen name and reference to my engineering background I simply sought to avoid the anticipated "you're not qualified" stuff. And I certainly didn't imply that these guys or anybody else were misanthropes. It so happens that I deeply respect the knowledge and experience that's out within this member community. That's why I'm here; I hope to learn, as part of this process. As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process.

Trinity, thanks, already looking at rec-climbing. (Pursuing this from many angles.) For what it's worth, this tree in front has plenty of strong limbs to serve as support. I.E. The climbing portion of this is about getting to reasonably secure locations to make cuts. Also, I have considerable experience felling, and my saw and other equip are in excellent condition, and again, this will not be attempted until I'm confident I can pull it off.

2Coilinveins, I am relaxed. I appreciate it if the intention is to keep me from injury, but with all due respect, I've survived this long, and have tackled far more difficult/dangerous tasks with similar preparation and have not suffered anything more than minor cuts/scrapes. This is due to appropriate caution and preparation. I'll be happy to report same to this forum when this task is finished.

TreeCo, I know the construction, tensile strength, diameter, weight per 100 feet, stretch, knot, break-in, abrasion and UV resistance, and flexibility characteristics of every current arborist rope from Atlantic Braids, New England, Buccaneer, Samson, Wall, and Yale. What I don't know, however, is what real users experience in the real world The intangibles. How does it feel, how does it stand up over time, etc. Accordingly, as stated originally I'm seeking advice.

 

[2Coilinveins]

thank you for being politically correct towards my gender...

the pronouns are h*ll to get politically correct, tho... don't you think???

No kidding! Some women get offended, some couldn't care less. I've had women get offended when I call them "ma'am." Go figure.

EngineerDude-

You'd get much better results if you didn't admit to no experience, ask for advice from experts(root word: experience? hmm....), get advice, then refute that advice with insults. On the other hand, I wonder how many here would actually consider being called an 'elitist' an insult? Not I.

 

[Elmore]

I've made decision to invest in what I need to climb it and drop it from the top, a piece at a time.

Video this feat and instruct your survivors or anyone else close to you, who is not permanently paralyzed, to post it to this site. That would be informative, educational and a hoot to boot.

 

[JimK]

I've seen other forums enter into judgement issues. The purpose of these many arbor forums is to safely grow our respective aerial activities. Whenever a newbie announces the launch of a self guided tree adventure, the requisit cautionary notes are posted. It's always a question of how this should be carried out, but it should be done. There are climbers joining tree crews on an ad hoc basis without extensive training or education. That's how I started; I simply started work with a tree crew one day. My return to climbing on the recreational side had to be self-guided or it wouldn't have started. I started very slow. I posted in the forums. I read. I practiced a lot. I find it difficult to judge a newbie that wants to climb. It's to be applauded. If judgement is to be passed then it has to be against the equipment companies for unregulated sales on a potentially dangerous endeavor.

Getting to the point of the thread, I really like the New England Fly as a recreational climber. It holds it shape. I typically ascend via body thrust, so I like the thickness that it provides. Because RTC is about excercise for me, I remain a knots on rope guy. I don't use ascending devices. However, I understand that the benefit of the New England Fly is that it holds well for mechanical ascenders. The Fly has proven itself to work in wet conditions as well. I use the Sportline for long hikes. It's lighter and more compact. Though reliable, the Fly features leave it in the dust. I find that I like tieing knots in the Fly over the Sportline.

It takes a brave person to crank up the chain saw in a tree. It takes an equally brave person to share a posting that they'd like to teach themselves. Lastly, the responses were on the mark that it's a dangerous endeavor without training.

Regards,
JimK
Keep FIT - Fun in Trees

 

[R Schra]

Video this feat and instruct your suvivors or anyone else close to you, who is not permanently paralyzed, to post it to this site. That would be informative, educational and a hoot to boot.

Whats wrong with limbing from the top? been there, done that, seen it all and survived.


mmmm, no not a recommedation to do so. It is extremly dangerous to do so.

i have to admit i had much much fun (and adrealine)to drop a top trough a crown and starting from up to down removing limbs on 20 huge poplars on a creek side with overhang above the water. it worked very well to drop the limbs near the side so a crane could pick them out. i just though why the hell getting a top anchor and going down again, just ran up on spikes and worked my way down. fast, easy, DANGEROUS it was. you really need to see in advance to understand the things and way the limbs can react on the cuts, getting caught by other limbs/trees, and still be save upthere. no way to do so if not experienced. It took 45 minutes a tree (first one) to clear it from the bottom up, 20 minutes to spike up and cutting down again. and that way the wood was much easier to get with the crane. maybe stupid to do so but i learned some nice lessons......

 

[EngineerDude]

R Schra - Thanks for sharing your experience. Every bit of insight I can gain into what I'm up against is helpful and is appreciated.

JimK - Thanks for your thoughtful perspective on the purpose and process of using these forums. I basically agree with these views, and that's why I'm here. Thanks also for the recommendation on rope. Again, every bit of insight is helpful and appreciated. Last item, I want to confirm that I recognize that this is dangerous without training, and I'll reiterate that I'm leaning toward ArborMaster when it comes here in October.

Elmore - Not sure you really intended your comment to be productive, but it may actually have some merit. Video is a good idea, and if I can get it to manageable size, I will post it once this is finished. So I guess thanks to you too for the idea.

2Coilinveins - As to "...get advice, then refute that advice with insults", I wonder if you were in my shoes if you would perceive Datawins' comment "Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun", to qualify as useful advice, particularly in the context of his comment "It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?"

To all, I honestly didn't intend "elitist" as an insult. I simply was trying to prevent the direction of the thread from turning toward a groundswell of "you're not qualified, hire a professional". Still, upon rereading it, my comments do appear a bit heavy-handed. Accordingly...

Datawins and TreeCo, I sincerely apologize for any perceived insult. Please forgive me. I once again am learning how difficult it is to communicate in small discrete sound bites and do so in a way that eliminates the possibility of misinterpretation.

 

[2Coilinveins]

2Coilinveins - As to "...get advice, then refute that advice with insults", I wonder if you were in my shoes if you would perceive Datawins' comment "Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun", to qualify as useful advice, particularly in the context of his comment "It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?"

Dadatwins' assessment sounds spot-on to me. In your defense, you did say you would not touch your tree until you were qualified. Either way, good luck, I look forward to hearing about a successfully completed job.

 

[Dadatwins]

My comments regarding no - experience homeowners who insist on doing thier own tree work should not be taken as an insult or an elitist attitude, I am simply stating the facts that there are to many wanna-be-treeclimbers getting hurt doing jobs that they have no business attempting. Simply read through the injury threads on this site and see how many folks, both novice and experienced, have been hurt doing this type of work. I applaud your efforts to want to learn about recreational climbing and would be glad to share any advice that I could regarding my opinion of tools and techniques. It is my opinion that recreational climbing and residential tree removal are two completly different subjects, but that is my opinion. Lets start with some pictures of the offending tree and grounds surrounding it and maybe give us a brief job plan as to how you would do this job. I am also curious about any ground help that may be involved and their experience level with aerial rescue, just in case things do not go according to plan.

 

[DDM]

As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process.

I dont believe this is going to happen without W/C cert. Why not just hire a Freelance climber to come out and supervise you?
O and also Study the this Forum.
http://www.arboristsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23O

 

[Elmore]

Elmore - Not sure you really intended your comment to be productive, but it may actually have some merit. Video is a good idea, and if I can get it to manageable size, I will post it once this is finished. So I guess thanks to you too for the idea.

Actually I was thinking of a "new" Vonage commercial.

 

[Ax-man]

Eng.

I got to give you a little credit for at least for not going out to buy a long ladder and then try to cut this Ash tree down.

As far as ropes go I like Samson's products, had good luck with them, they lend themselves nicely to my style of climbing. I can't tell you any more than that, because the rest is simply a judgement call on the part of the user. Everyone has different needs and styles when they climb, this is why there are so many different ropes to choose from.

It really isn't about which rope is best or what type of climbing system is good or bad the crux of the matter is how skilled are you in the use of tools of the trade, especially using a chainsaw up in a tree.

Rec climbing trees and doing research is helpful but is not really going to matter when you are running a chainsaw at eye level, inches away from your body blocking down a spar. I would almost bet this is where most people get hurt doing their own tree removal. Then there are times when you have to be tied in at some unnatural, uncomfortable and some times not so stable positions and still have to run a saw, felling trees on the ground do not count for experience in situations like this.

There is much information in the archives, but there is also much information missing that can not be communicated simply with a keyboard and screen on how to read a tree for removal.

Just putting in my little 2 cents worth is all. If you think you can pull this off we will try to help as best we can.

Larry